Technology and culture in your campaigns

[Agamemnon]

What technological and cultural levels do you use in your campaigns? Do you go by the book, and use the tech levels as described for each domain, or do you change some of them or even all?

I, for instance, am not too fond of the highest cultural step in Ravenloft, and I am not even referring to firearms and such like. I find it a bit jarring, when people in some domains wear bowler hats, publish newspapers or sail in steamboats looking like Southern Gentlemen (or Belles). I mean, that's what Masque is for.

I just find the juxtaposition of mail-clad knights with arming swords at their sides with steamboat captains or charleston vixens a little off. That's why I mainly use a late medieval cultural level in my campaigns, and ignore too modern references.

What about you?

[ewancummins]

I made the Core bigger by a factor of 10. I didn't really increase populations to match, though- so I have a lot of wilderness and thinly-inhabitated countryside on the map. By increasing travel times, I'm better able to justify a broad range of technological and other cultural differences. Another assumption of mine is that the Balinoks are higher than in canon sources- making them more of a buffer to trade, migration, etc.

My advice is to not think of the Core as 'Europe.' Most of the countries aren't very old ( even in their 'false histories' most are only a few centuries old), there was never anything like the Roman Empire or Charlemagne's empire, and there is no equivalent to the powerful influence of the Church and the concept of Christendom. It's also much, much more peaceful than Europe- which might retard the development of weapons and military technology. Travellers and merchants, however, have to deal with not just bandits but dangerous monsters inhabiting the wild country! Travel and trade, which transmit ideas, may be a perilous undertaking, even without warring armies in the way.



If you are troubled by steam engines- just make them magical- like the steamboat in Dance of the Dead. Or do away with them entirely- it's your game!

[Agamemnon]

If you are troubled by steam engines- just make them magical- like the steamboat in Dance of the Dead. Or do away with them entirely- it's your game!

Oh, yeah, I home-rule just about everything in Ravenloft, so it's not a problem for my own, private games. My version of Ravenloft is whole lot more late medieval in general than the official version, but not just in technology, but in cultural outlook.

You see, it isn't really the steam engines or other Victorian tech that bothers me the most; it is rather the modern outlook some of the domains have.

I am thinking of business men in three-piece suits and bowler hats, or brassy high society "dames" in their flapper charleston dresses and feathered headbands; Alfred Timothy wearing a suit and a Texan tie; complex and modern (post-1900) understanding of mental illness and subsequent facilities for treating it; factories and free market economies with companies in a modern sense (selling cooking oil in mass produced bottles, no less), that sort of thing.

And yet for all these modern paradigms, these 19th century pseudo-Victorians (and 20th century flappers) still rub shoulders with plate and mail-clad knights and men-at-arms from an analogue of the 14th century, and they are not supposed to lift an eyebrow. In fact, their own guards are probably equipped the same way.

In Paridon, a very modern domain, for instance, the city guard still use mail and polearms, despite the very Victorian flavour of the rest of society.

I guess I don't appreciate the mix so much, and I prefer the more Fantasy feel of Ravenloft, rather than the pseudo-Victorian. Does that make any sense?

It's not that I dislike Victoriana (in fact I like Cthulhu by Gaslight), I just prefer a more medieval fantasy ambience in Ravenloft, because I consider Ravenloft a setting, where I can do both horror and (classic)fantasy, rather than one or the other. I can have my cake and eat it too.

Enough rambling, those are my personal reasons for scaling back the cultural levels of the more advanced domains.

How about the rest of you?

[NeoTiamat]

For myself, in the Eye of Anubis and Shattered City campaigns, I've tended to hard-pedal the pseudo-Victorian aspects and tone down the Fantasy aspects. It's an admitted hodge-podge, but printing presses, cannons, primitive cameras, and daily newspapers all have their places. (It helps that my main inspirations for the campaigns have been H. P. Lovecraft, Indiana Jones, and most recently Les Miserables).

Regarding the mail-clad knight issue side by side with clipper ships, I handled it by "discreet-ifying" the medieval weaponry aspects. Plate armor gets re-written as a stout breastplate under the clothes, swords and such are generally handwaved as being more socially acceptable, etc. The magic I tend to treat in a very Eberron-ish fashion. It's sufficiently reliable that it's treated mostly as a science, and thus fits into the whole Victorian-ish rationalist mold. About two out of every three wizards the PCs have met in my campaigns have ended up being members of the University of Dementlieu (not intentional, but it just worked out that way).

[ewancummins]

Ah! Yes, I see what you mean. I tend to downplay the Gaslight stuff, myself. I much prefer the 16th, 17th, and perhaps the 18th centuries for Ravenloft- a huge spread, admittedly, but I think it blends well.

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[Rotipher of the FoS]

In Paridon, a very modern domain, for instance, the city guard still use mail and polearms, despite the very Victorian flavour of the rest of society.

IIRC, the Paridon police started carrying pistols pretty quickly after the existence of the marikith was confirmed. This quick changeover suggests that they could have been carrying guns long before then, but chose to restrict themselves to melee weapons to keep the lethality of violent confrontations down. Not unlike IRL London police, who did without guns for many years until the criminals started packing illegal firearms.

[ewancummins]

In Paridon, a very modern domain, for instance, the city guard still use mail and polearms, despite the very Victorian flavour of the rest of society.

IIRC, the Paridon police started carrying pistols pretty quickly after the existence of the marikith was confirmed. This quick changeover suggests that they could have been carrying guns long before then, but chose to restrict themselves to melee weapons to keep the lethality of violent confrontations down. Not unlike IRL London police, who did without guns for many years until the criminals started packing illegal firearms.

With markith around, I think I might might mail, a polearm, and some pistols.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

And yet for all these modern paradigms, these 19th century pseudo-Victorians (and 20th century flappers) still rub shoulders with plate and mail-clad knights and men-at-arms from an analogue of the 14th century, and they are not supposed to lift an eyebrow.

You mean, like how IRL Victorians stationed around the British Empire rubbed shoulders with scimitar-wielding Beduin tribesmen, Indian rajahs in ceremonial banded mail, First Nations Canadians with bows and arrows, or Zulu armies with cowhide shields and spears? Ravenloft isn't Europe, it's a colonial-analog melting pot between long-separated cultures that only started interacting recently.

[ewancummins]

And yet for all these modern paradigms, these 19th century pseudo-Victorians (and 20th century flappers) still rub shoulders with plate and mail-clad knights and men-at-arms from an analogue of the 14th century, and they are not supposed to lift an eyebrow.

You mean, like how IRL Victorians stationed around the British Empire rubbed shoulders with scimitar-wielding Beduin tribesmen, Indian rajahs in ceremonial banded mail, First Nations Canadians with bows and arrows, or Zulu armies with cowhide shields and spears? Ravenloft isn't Europe, it's a colonial-analog melting pot between long-separated cultures that only started interacting recently.

Yar!

Right- not Europe!

[DeepShadow of FoS]

And yet for all these modern paradigms, these 19th century pseudo-Victorians (and 20th century flappers) still rub shoulders with plate and mail-clad knights and men-at-arms from an analogue of the 14th century, and they are not supposed to lift an eyebrow. In fact, their own guards are probably equipped the same way.

Yeah, but it is a patchwork world, after all. Some things blend, some don't. I don't see a 19th century person standing next to a 14th century person any more or less jarring than a 19th century country sharing a border with a 14th century one.

In Paridon, a very modern domain, for instance, the city guard still use mail and polearms, despite the very Victorian flavour of the rest of society.

1) This has changed, as others have pointed out.
2) This is yet another example of that gestalt you have a hard time with.

I guess I don't appreciate the mix so much, and I prefer the more Fantasy feel of Ravenloft, rather than the pseudo-Victorian. Does that make any sense?

Yes, it makes a lot of sense, considering the rest of your posts. Considering how much you dislike gestalts, one wonders why you'd choose a patchworld world like RL at all! What does this hodge-podge setting hold for you?

It's not that I dislike Victoriana (in fact I like Cthulhu by Gaslight), I just prefer a more medieval fantasy ambience in Ravenloft, because I consider Ravenloft a setting, where I can do both horror and (classic)fantasy, rather than one or the other. I can have my cake and eat it too.

Okay, NOW I'm confused. You like the fantasy/horror mix, but not the Victoriana/fantasy/horror mix? And you think that including Victoriana will force you to choose between fantasy and horror? Why would it force such a choice?

[Guzrath]

I much prefer the 16th, 17th, and perhaps the 18th centuries for Ravenloft

Same here. I've been working on a new campaign centered in Port-a-Lucine picking roughly the 17th century styles for culture. This is just something I want to try out for a change. Last campaign they were purely in survival mode in Markovia, Dominia and Verbrek. Different age and technology.

I pick the Ravenloft setting because its the one i'm most familiar with and I like the most. I change styles regularly. I make changes as I go along, larger Core, important factions, cultures, etc.

The Ravenloft setting is more of a guideline and background information for a campaign. It has the maps, the NPC's and the flavour. Same with Eberron.

So if you:

for instance, am not too fond of the highest cultural step in Ravenloft, and I am not even referring to firearms and such like. I find it a bit jarring, when people in some domains wear bowler hats, publish newspapers or sail in steamboats looking like Southern Gentlemen (or Belles). I mean, that's what Masque is for.

then use Masque for it. It's a matter of taste really. You could go complete gothic horror in Eberron as well, Ravenloft and Masque are simply build around that theme, they have the background and everything (and they're great).

In short, I "use the book" for information I don't want to spend time figuring out myself, but "I don't go by it".

[Agamemnon]

Yeah, but it is a patchwork world, after all. Some things blend, some don't. I don't see a 19th century person standing next to a 14th century person any more or less jarring than a 19th century country sharing a border with a 14th century one.

Oh, but I find that jarring too. I really don't like mixing Victoriana with Iron Age/medieval paradigms

2) This is yet another example of that gestalt you have a hard time with.

Yes, apparently so. I am allowed to have a hard time with it, am I not?

Yes, it makes a lot of sense, considering the rest of your posts. Considering how much you dislike gestalts, one wonders why you'd choose a patchworld world like RL at all! What does this hodge-podge setting hold for you?

A heady mix of standard fantasy trappings and the tropes and conventions of Eastern European folklore, I guess. Death on the mist-shrouded moor, the unloved dead rising from their graves as vampires preying on their former kin, knights in armour smiting down evil (and dying a hero's death more often than not), that sort of thing.

Just because I don't like the Victorian trappings doesn't mean I can't enjoy the rest of Ravenloft immensely, and I will add that Ravenloft has steadily become more and more Victorian in flavour as the editions have come and gone. Ravenloft was closer to a medieval folkloric paradigm in the early days. Of course, there were all sorts of other crotchety things about the setting back then, so it's not like I'm saying that everything was better back in the old days.

Okay, NOW I'm confused. You like the fantasy/horror mix, but not the Victoriana/fantasy/horror mix? And you think that including Victoriana will force you to choose between fantasy and horror? Why would it force such a choice?

You misinterpret me. Horror for me is not so much a setting as a plot element that you can add to most settings, whereas Victoriana/steampunk and fantasy are settings; it just so happens that I prefer not to mix these two settings. I know that there are very dedicated fans to Castle Falkenstein and RunePunk and other Steam-Fantasy settings. They are just not for me.
So that's why I have no problem with mixing horror and fantasy, but conversely have a problem with mixing Victoriana and fantasy. I consider horror an element I can add to either one of the settings, but consider the mixing of the settings unsightly.

[Agamemnon]

IIRC, the Paridon police started carrying pistols pretty quickly after the existence of the marikith was confirmed. This quick changeover suggests that they could have been carrying guns long before then, but chose to restrict themselves to melee weapons to keep the lethality of violent confrontations down. Not unlike IRL London police, who did without guns for many years until the criminals started packing illegal firearms.

Sure, but those would be flint-lock, muzzle-loading pistols, would they not? They wouldn't be cartridge or caplock revolvers, as would be more appropriate for the rest of Paridon's tech level, unless I misremember Paridon completely. So we still have a strange case of a Victorian society in all respects except their weaponry, which is 17th century or lower.

You mean, like how IRL Victorians stationed around the British Empire rubbed shoulders with scimitar-wielding Beduin tribesmen, Indian rajahs in ceremonial banded mail, First Nations Canadians with bows and arrows, or Zulu armies with cowhide shields and spears? Ravenloft isn't Europe, it's a colonial-analog melting pot between long-separated cultures that only started interacting recently.

Ah, but as you will note, it is not only visiting mercenaries from distant realms that are clad in 14th century garb. Yes, it is true that Victorian Britons could meet Talwar-wielding Indian warriors, but I daresay it would be highly surprising if the Metropolitan Police or Her Majesty's Army dressed in mail and used axes and swords, other than the use of sabres for the cavalry, and even that was phasing out at this point.

By that rationale, Paridons could of course see chain-clad knights in foreign lands or see them visiting their city, but isn't it odd that this almost modern domain have Renaissance landsknechte as their guards?

Anyhoo, these are just my personal preferences. I dislike mixing Victorian society with medieval folklore, so therefore I regress the technology cultural outlook of domains with those cultures. I am equally interested in hearing from people who do the opposite, i.e. fast-forward the cultural levels of other domains, so Ravenloft as a whole has a more Victorian feel (or Renaissance feel or Baroque feel, depending on where the individual DM places the "normal" cultural level for his campaign).

Cheers.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

Sure, but those would be flint-lock, muzzle-loading pistols, would they not? They wouldn't be cartridge or caplock revolvers, as would be more appropriate for the rest of Paridon's tech level, unless I misremember Paridon completely. So we still have a strange case of a Victorian society in all respects except their weaponry, which is 17th century or lower.

Weapon technology advances because it's necessary for defense or conquest. Zherisia was isolated by the Mists for two hundred years, so where's the necessity? If England had been Mist-napped in the late 17th century, with no neighbors to threaten or be threatened by, the English would probably still be using muzzle-loaded firearms.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Personally, I like the hodgepodge. In the "civilized cities", we drink fine wine in a cafe, attend a masquerade ball, and then take in an opera, while muddling through intrigue and dueling with clockwork assassins. Then out in the wilderness we don our armor and fight the beasties in the woods and the dark knights on the road.

Does it make total sense? not really, but IMHO, the hodgepodge nature and the more modern stuff distinguish RL from "regular D&D" more than the horror does. Any campaign world can have horrific elements, but the gothic horror I think of first for RL of is decidedly more modern than most medieval settings.

To me, RL is at its heart, "Frankenstein & Dracula meet D&D," with all the good and the bad that that implies.