I recently managed to play through and finish Planescape: Torment and my enjoyment of it, coupled with my fondness for Ravenloft, made me start thinking. Of course, I'm pretty sure that the idea I have is pure madness, but I thought I might as well come here so people can hammer home just how crazy it is so that I can let it go.
I know that, in canon, the Nameless One is condemned to the Blood War for the unspoken atrocities committed by his first incarnation. However, as my topic on borrowing some inspiration from PS:T showed, there's a fairly tragic/gothic element to the Nameless One, which means he could believably have been enveloped by the Mists either instead of going to the Blood War or after some time on the killing fields of the Lower Planes.
The basis of my idea stems from the fact that the Nameless One's party, even with the Symbol of Torment removed, are loyal to him and are implied to want him back at the end. The concept postulates that, after being sent back to Sigil, the quintet remain in contact with each other and began pooling their resouces to try and find some trace of their friend and leader. Discovering what little stories exist about Ravenloft, they decide that the possibility of the Nameless One being there is too great to pass by, and so they enter the Land of Mists. Of course, getting in is easy- getting out is the hard part...
Naturally, the idea wouldn't follow things from the quintet's point of view- as has been pointed out here, even a human from Planescape would be extremely resistant to the natural dreads and darkness of Ravenloft, having, literally, seen worse. It's hard to be prejudiced against elves or dwarves when you see angels and demons in the local pub, a lone zombie strolling through a graveyard is nothing after a mortuary where the staff is 90% zombie and skeleton workers, and an army of cruel mortals is boring after being caught between a Blood War skirmish.
Instead, this idea would focus on the human (and demihuman) reactions as the quintet passes through. While they are all of good alignment, or at least not the sort to just stand back and let others suffer, their appearances, thoughts, powers, forms, are all utterly alien to Ravenloft, and people can't help but react to that. Can you imagine how, say, Laura Weathermay-Foxgrove would react to discovering that Outlanders truly are what they say they are, and that there are worlds beyond anything she has ever imagined untouched by the everpresent Mists? Or the twins' reaction to the concept of the Blood War, or the fact a Fiend can Rise or an Angel can Fall? How would Azalin react upon discovering the existence of professional planeswalkers in Ravenloft?
Alright, you now have the basics. I am ready to be disillusioned.
If people are curious, the quintet from Torment that I see are Dak'kon, Annah-of-the-Shadows, Fall-From-Grace, Morte, and Nordom. I can't really see them developing that kind of loyalty as would bring them to Ravenloft to search from him if the Nameless One had led an evil life in his last incarnation as an Unmortal, which means Ignus would have perished in the Fortress of Regrets. Vhailor might have been freed by them, but he wouldn't have followed, being as how he is a fanatic even by Mercykiller standards.
When Two Worlds Meet - concept discussion
When Two Worlds Meet - concept discussion
"Is there any word more meaningless than 'hope'? Besides 'blarfurgsnarg,' of course."
"Seek and Locate! Locate and Destroy! Destroy and Rejoice!"
"Seek and Locate! Locate and Destroy! Destroy and Rejoice!"
I think some of the themes are very fitting for Ravenloft. TNO's entire story is about personal discovery, and the acceptance of one's past transgressions, and the final peace that comes from forgiving oneself. I found the story immensely touching, and in certain places the writing is the best I've ever seen in any video game. (The Sensate memory of Deionnarra's misplaced faithfulness was especially moving to read.)
A story could go several ways with this. Bear in mind you're writing for a readership that may not be familiar with PST, so you could get a fair bit of early mileage out of introducing the Quintet and their fascinating backstories.
The fact that they might be jaded planewalkers compared to Ravenloft's parochial inhabitants shouldn't be a huge problem - much of the narrative tension could well come from the fact that the Demiplane's natives react poorly to them.
Fall-From-Grace may get a reality wrinkle of her own, given her heritage. Something that attracts men irresistibly to her may make for a suitably ironic trope for her.
Concerning the plot itself, I think you have a great amount of leeway to interact with the darklords. The Quintet would be one of the few adventuring parties that's powerful enough not to run away screaming at first encounter (though they may well do so at a second, if they come off worse for wear).
Azalin, Strahd, Malken, or any of the more bureaucratic darklords could give them a fair bit of antagonist tension, sort of in a Mulder-Scully-FBI sort of way. Azalin certainly has a very pressing reason to want to capture them and find out what they know. (Although if Grace has her own Reality Wrinkle, and if you're playing this post-Restoration, Azalin's mind reading ability might be blockable ONLY by Grace's reality wrinkle.)
Bear in mind that there are other fiends in Ravenloft. It's possible that the Blood War occasionally drops off casualties in Ravenloft, and that TNO was sent there as an exchange or something. If he ended up in Darkon, his memory loss might allow a unique retelling of the original story. His proximity to Styrix's machine may also give him the way out that he needs (although canon states that the Rift Spanner only has room for three...).
Either way, your story focus could be on the love that the Quintet feels for this one-of-a-kind planewalker, and the dedication and devotion they show in helping him even when it means they themselves are forfeit to the mists.
A story could go several ways with this. Bear in mind you're writing for a readership that may not be familiar with PST, so you could get a fair bit of early mileage out of introducing the Quintet and their fascinating backstories.
The fact that they might be jaded planewalkers compared to Ravenloft's parochial inhabitants shouldn't be a huge problem - much of the narrative tension could well come from the fact that the Demiplane's natives react poorly to them.
Fall-From-Grace may get a reality wrinkle of her own, given her heritage. Something that attracts men irresistibly to her may make for a suitably ironic trope for her.
Concerning the plot itself, I think you have a great amount of leeway to interact with the darklords. The Quintet would be one of the few adventuring parties that's powerful enough not to run away screaming at first encounter (though they may well do so at a second, if they come off worse for wear).
Azalin, Strahd, Malken, or any of the more bureaucratic darklords could give them a fair bit of antagonist tension, sort of in a Mulder-Scully-FBI sort of way. Azalin certainly has a very pressing reason to want to capture them and find out what they know. (Although if Grace has her own Reality Wrinkle, and if you're playing this post-Restoration, Azalin's mind reading ability might be blockable ONLY by Grace's reality wrinkle.)
Bear in mind that there are other fiends in Ravenloft. It's possible that the Blood War occasionally drops off casualties in Ravenloft, and that TNO was sent there as an exchange or something. If he ended up in Darkon, his memory loss might allow a unique retelling of the original story. His proximity to Styrix's machine may also give him the way out that he needs (although canon states that the Rift Spanner only has room for three...).
Either way, your story focus could be on the love that the Quintet feels for this one-of-a-kind planewalker, and the dedication and devotion they show in helping him even when it means they themselves are forfeit to the mists.
I've just been doing some thinking and now I have some general questions...
Don't Reality Wrinkles only form if an Outsider is of Good or Evil alignment? I am thinking about using 4e as the 'background mechanics', but that's a different matter... anyway, if this is so, then neither Fall-From-Grace nor Nordom (according to the 3.5 rules for such, as a Rogue Modron, Nordom is still an Extraplanar Construct as opposed to the Living Construct of the Exiled Modron) would have Reality Wrinkles, right? According to Torment, Fall is Lawful Neutral and Nordom is Chaotic Neutral.
What's the difference between a Reality Wrinkle and Twisting, again? Don't all Outsiders have a Reality Wrinkly, but a Twisting only affects mortals exposed to the RW of a Good Outsider?
As Annah only has that tail as her tiefling mark, and as Fall presumably still has her shapechanging powers (or, at least enough to hide the bat-like wings that mark her as a succubus), they shouldn't have too much trouble hiding what they are. Similarly, Morte can pretend to be an ordinary skull if he just clams up. But is it possible for Dak'kon to disguise himself? At the very least by claiming to be an Elf who has suffered some sort of disfiguring ailment? I do realise Nordom can't hope to be disguised.
If the Nameless One managed to shake off any mind-fogging effects laid on him by Ravenloft (for example, the Memory Rewriting of Darkon... but would that even work on someone who has the total memories of thousands of lives?), would the Dark Powers be able to keep him in the Land of Mists? I mean, having obtained access to the sum of the power he has acquired throughout his many lives, the Nameless One would probably be something like a level 60 character, at least. The Dark Powers couldn't keep Vecna imprisoned (at least, not without his struggles tearing their world apart); how would they keep him in chains if he didn't want them to?
How would the... what's it called, the Stifling of Reason? In Lamordia affect Nordom? He is an extraplanar living embodiment of pure Logic and Order, even in his corrupted state...
Don't Reality Wrinkles only form if an Outsider is of Good or Evil alignment? I am thinking about using 4e as the 'background mechanics', but that's a different matter... anyway, if this is so, then neither Fall-From-Grace nor Nordom (according to the 3.5 rules for such, as a Rogue Modron, Nordom is still an Extraplanar Construct as opposed to the Living Construct of the Exiled Modron) would have Reality Wrinkles, right? According to Torment, Fall is Lawful Neutral and Nordom is Chaotic Neutral.
What's the difference between a Reality Wrinkle and Twisting, again? Don't all Outsiders have a Reality Wrinkly, but a Twisting only affects mortals exposed to the RW of a Good Outsider?
As Annah only has that tail as her tiefling mark, and as Fall presumably still has her shapechanging powers (or, at least enough to hide the bat-like wings that mark her as a succubus), they shouldn't have too much trouble hiding what they are. Similarly, Morte can pretend to be an ordinary skull if he just clams up. But is it possible for Dak'kon to disguise himself? At the very least by claiming to be an Elf who has suffered some sort of disfiguring ailment? I do realise Nordom can't hope to be disguised.
If the Nameless One managed to shake off any mind-fogging effects laid on him by Ravenloft (for example, the Memory Rewriting of Darkon... but would that even work on someone who has the total memories of thousands of lives?), would the Dark Powers be able to keep him in the Land of Mists? I mean, having obtained access to the sum of the power he has acquired throughout his many lives, the Nameless One would probably be something like a level 60 character, at least. The Dark Powers couldn't keep Vecna imprisoned (at least, not without his struggles tearing their world apart); how would they keep him in chains if he didn't want them to?
How would the... what's it called, the Stifling of Reason? In Lamordia affect Nordom? He is an extraplanar living embodiment of pure Logic and Order, even in his corrupted state...
"Is there any word more meaningless than 'hope'? Besides 'blarfurgsnarg,' of course."
"Seek and Locate! Locate and Destroy! Destroy and Rejoice!"
"Seek and Locate! Locate and Destroy! Destroy and Rejoice!"
Reality Wrinkles, Twisting, and the Lamordian Reason phenomenon are all things introduced in 3rd ed (and arguably in 3.5, I'm not sure) that I have only the most fleeting grasp of. I'd have to read up on them, and right now I'm in the process of selling off my DnD books. If I come across the Ravenloft books before they're gone, I'll look this up but most of my expertise is way back to 2nd ed.
All the rest of your questions, like TNO being around L60 and questions about whether the Dark Powers or Azalin's memory drain could work on him, are clearly unanswerable given the limitations of the system's rules for Ravenloft. Don't let that scare you. As the author, you get to set the rules how you want!
All the rest of your questions, like TNO being around L60 and questions about whether the Dark Powers or Azalin's memory drain could work on him, are clearly unanswerable given the limitations of the system's rules for Ravenloft. Don't let that scare you. As the author, you get to set the rules how you want!
Thank you for that advice. Hmm... would you mind helping me figure out what details I will need to establish before I can begin answering them, which I will have to do before I can actually begin writing this?
"Is there any word more meaningless than 'hope'? Besides 'blarfurgsnarg,' of course."
"Seek and Locate! Locate and Destroy! Destroy and Rejoice!"
"Seek and Locate! Locate and Destroy! Destroy and Rejoice!"
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Jason of the Fraternity
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First and foremost, Planescape: Torment has to be my absolute favorite computer game of all time. Not only did it due justice to the setting, but the game was leaps and bounds better than most anything else that was available at the time (and still has better options and gameplay than a lot of games today).
Second, while I know that it has been about a month and a half after your original request for help, please let me know if you are still looking for somebody to help provide additional insights or act as a sounding board. Being very familiar with the game as well as the Ravenloft setting, I'd be more than happy to provide some assistance to you.
Second, while I know that it has been about a month and a half after your original request for help, please let me know if you are still looking for somebody to help provide additional insights or act as a sounding board. Being very familiar with the game as well as the Ravenloft setting, I'd be more than happy to provide some assistance to you.
[i]Pandemonium did not reign, it poured![/i]
Well, thank you for the kind offer. If you mean that, then yes, I would like your help with this idea. I'll warn you that I only know about 2e from the modified version of the rules used in Torment, and actually like the 4e ruleset, but as mechanics have absolutely no revelance to this matter whatsoever, whereas fluff does, that's not really any problem.
"Is there any word more meaningless than 'hope'? Besides 'blarfurgsnarg,' of course."
"Seek and Locate! Locate and Destroy! Destroy and Rejoice!"
"Seek and Locate! Locate and Destroy! Destroy and Rejoice!"
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Jason of the Fraternity
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Yes, between the original concepts from 2nd edition and the rules further detailed in 3E/3.5E, only outsiders with either the Good or Evil descriptor create a reality wrinkle.Hell_Born wrote:Don't Reality Wrinkles only form if an Outsider is of Good or Evil alignment?
Basically, a Reality Wrinkle is a distortion of the area surrounding the outsider created by the outsider's presence in the demiplane. The energies of the outsider and the artifical world conflicting/competing with one another. The "Twisting" occurs within the reality wrinkle of a good outsider due to the conflict between a being of good and a world of evil (whereas a evil outsider is superceding the evil world with a far more evil presence of a fiend).Hell_Born wrote:What's the difference between a Reality Wrinkle and Twisting, again? Don't all Outsiders have a Reality Wrinkly, but a Twisting only affects mortals exposed to the RW of a Good Outsider?
Yes, Dak'kon could certainly disguise himself, but I'd wager that it would be a difficult endeavor at best. I supposed it'd depend upon how much ranks of bluff/disguise that you'd consider him to have (which would probably be few or none). However, I could see the group trying to pass him off as an elf.Hell_Born wrote:But is it possible for Dak'kon to disguise himself? At the very least by claiming to be an Elf who has suffered some sort of disfiguring ailment? I do realise Nordom can't hope to be disguised.
As for Nordom, the likelihood of diguising him is slim to none. The best option would probably be to keep him hidden most of the time...
As HuManBing pointed out, there really isn't any specific rules or examples to provide a definitive answer for this. I think that you, as the author, should really go with whatever best fits your story. My general thoughts would be that the Dark Powers wouldn't be able to contain him forever, but they should definitely hinder him greatly.Hell_Born wrote:If the Nameless One managed to shake off any mind-fogging effects laid on him by Ravenloft (for example, the Memory Rewriting of Darkon... but would that even work on someone who has the total memories of thousands of lives?), would the Dark Powers be able to keep him in the Land of Mists?
[i]Pandemonium did not reign, it poured![/i]
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Jason of the Fraternity
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Yes, the offer was both legit and sincere. Just let me know what sort of help and/or advice for which you were looking.Hell_Born wrote:Well, thank you for the kind offer. If you mean that, then yes, I would like your help with this idea.
Ironically, I'm pretty familiar with the rules from everything predating the fourth edition. However, as you said, you looking for fluff moreso than rules.Hell_Born wrote:I'll warn you that I only know about 2e from the modified version of the rules used in Torment, and actually like the 4e ruleset, but as mechanics have absolutely no revelance to this matter whatsoever, whereas fluff does, that's not really any problem.
[i]Pandemonium did not reign, it poured![/i]
Thank you for the advice. I truly appreciate it. So, as Annah is only a Tiefling (Outsider [Native] in 3.5, I think) and Fall-From-Grace is Lawful (or was it True?) Neutral (Unaligned in 4e- she's nice, but she's not outright devoted to Good), neither of them would have a Reality Wrinkle?
Hmm... does that mean that Fall wouldn't generate the 'gateways' in closed Domain Borders? If I recall rightly, those occur because the Reality Wrinkle (which she doesn't have, due to not having the Good or Evil subtypes) 'steals' that part of the land from its Darklord.
And that brings up the biggest part of things; actually planning out the general flow of the story, and storyboarding specific segments. Would you be adverse to helping me with that?
Hmm... does that mean that Fall wouldn't generate the 'gateways' in closed Domain Borders? If I recall rightly, those occur because the Reality Wrinkle (which she doesn't have, due to not having the Good or Evil subtypes) 'steals' that part of the land from its Darklord.
And that brings up the biggest part of things; actually planning out the general flow of the story, and storyboarding specific segments. Would you be adverse to helping me with that?
"Is there any word more meaningless than 'hope'? Besides 'blarfurgsnarg,' of course."
"Seek and Locate! Locate and Destroy! Destroy and Rejoice!"
"Seek and Locate! Locate and Destroy! Destroy and Rejoice!"
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Jason of the Fraternity
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You're very welcome. While I might be retired from being a full-time member of the Fraternity, I still like to keep plugged in and help out now and again. Besides, my love (and subsequent knowledge) of the outer planes should come as no surprise. There is a reason that my Fraternity persona (Dr. Anthony Reuland) is a tiefling enchanter.Hell_Born wrote:Thank you for the advice. I truly appreciate it.
Correct on both accounts. Tieflings, Annah in this case, are considered native Outsiders. Because tiefling don't possess the Good or Evil descriptors, they do not in turn possess a reality wrinkle. Fall-From-Grace is Lawful Neutral (due to her captivity amongst the Baatezu), and I am guessing would being listed as an Outsider with the Lawful descriptor. Again, despite being a full fledged Outsider, she lackes the Good or Evil subtype descriptors.Hell_Born wrote:So, as Annah is only a Tiefling (Outsider [Native] in 3.5, I think) and Fall-From-Grace is Lawful (or was it True?) Neutral (Unaligned in 4e- she's nice, but she's not outright devoted to Good), neither of them would have a Reality Wrinkle?
Correct, again. If you agree that Fall-From-Grace wouldn't have a reality wrinkle, then she would also be incapable of generating the 'gateways' in closed Domain borders. The idea is that the reality wrinkle of fiends and celestials are actually superceding the area of the demiplane (i.e., the evil of the fiend actually takes over that small part of the domain temporarily). This ability is what allows the Outsider to negate the Darklords' ability to trap them. A good example is Isolde and the Carnival, which is able to freely travel around the demiplane.Hell_Born wrote:Hmm... does that mean that Fall wouldn't generate the 'gateways' in closed Domain Borders? If I recall rightly, those occur because the Reality Wrinkle (which she doesn't have, due to not having the Good or Evil subtypes) 'steals' that part of the land from its Darklord.
Not at all. Just let me know your ideas or for what you are looking, and I'll try to help. Please keep in mind that I'm not around all that often, but I'll make it a point to stop by here every couple days to help you out with this.Hell_Born wrote:And that brings up the biggest part of things; actually planning out the general flow of the story, and storyboarding specific segments. Would you be adverse to helping me with that?
[i]Pandemonium did not reign, it poured![/i]
Thank you, I appreciate that. Hmm... if it would be more convenient, I do have an MSN account and we could discuss it through that medium, if you would prefer. Otherwise, I'm fine to stick to this forum topic.
"Is there any word more meaningless than 'hope'? Besides 'blarfurgsnarg,' of course."
"Seek and Locate! Locate and Destroy! Destroy and Rejoice!"
"Seek and Locate! Locate and Destroy! Destroy and Rejoice!"
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Jason of the Fraternity
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I don't tend to use MSN, so I'm fine leaving it here (unless you need to move the discussion elsewhere). Besides, I'm actually more likely to keep track of this thread and our discussions here.
If this progresses far enough where you need me to actually read more than what can easily be expressed in post format, you're always welcome to e-mail me as well.
If this progresses far enough where you need me to actually read more than what can easily be expressed in post format, you're always welcome to e-mail me as well.
[i]Pandemonium did not reign, it poured![/i]