4E Update: Druids are OUT, Wardens are IN.

[Dion of the Fraternity]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20090105

Not much to say, actually, since PHB lists "druid" as a title for clerics who worship nature gods. But it's cool, nevertheless.

[Jester of the FoS]

There are still druids. Now they're just trying to make additional brand new classes to fill roles.
But unlike adapting existing classes, they're making things up. How would a divine control act and be different from a wizard (arcane controller) or cleric (divine leader)?

Of course, they way they've chosen to do this is take away elements of core classes. The wizard loses illusions, mind control, summoning and more to make later classes more interesting.

[Paladyn]

The whole striker/controller mambo jumbo reminds me, why I don't like fourth edition and why I fell in love with pathfinder.

[Mortavius]

Yes as was mentioned, the title is misleading; the Druid is still a class in the PHB2; the Warden is a nature-themed warrior, whereas the Druid is a nature-themed spellcaster.

Personally, I'm looking forward to it.

[DocBeard]

Of course, they way they've chosen to do this is take away elements of core classes. The wizard loses illusions, mind control, summoning and more to make later classes more interesting.

To which I say: Doesn't that make more sense than having six different wizard classes sectioned apart by "specialization"?

I mean, let's assume that a psychic controlling class is going to have the lion's share of mind control and illusion powers. Is it that different from playing an enchanter or illusionist?

[Lord Soth]

Yes as was mentioned, the title is misleading; the Druid is still a class in the PHB2; the Warden is a nature-themed warrior, whereas the Druid is a nature-themed spellcaster.

Personally, I'm looking forward to it.

Likewise. Both the Druid and Warden look to be pretty interesting, and I'm looking forward to seeing them in play (May end up playing one, myself).

[Lanus]

I'm liking the warden more than the druid. Or at least the shaping aspect.

Warden and Beastmaster Ranger have a really good way to handle shifts / companions by dividing them in different types. Druid seems to transform in a generic beast creature and some utility powers let it transform in a generic small animal.

Also, the warden looks really awesome. I just have this willow-man in my head telling me that I shall not pass

[Lord Soth]

The whole striker/controller mambo jumbo reminds me, why I don't like fourth edition and why I fell in love with pathfinder.

That's actually one of my favorite things. No longer will the following situation arise:

DM: We've got a Fighter, Mage, and Thief. So what're you gonna play?

PLAYER: I want to play a Bard.

DM: You... could do that, but the party could really use a Cleric.

PLAYER: ...I'll play a Cleric.

Nice to know that that player can now play his Bard and the party will still be a wellrounded party. I never cared for the "5th Wheel" class that always felt like a burden to the party, rather than a benefit (A burden in the sense of "Well, that's cool, but man, it'd sure be nice if we had a Cleric or a Thief, instead").

I'm liking the warden more than the druid. Or at least the shaping aspect.

Warden and Beastmaster Ranger have a really good way to handle shifts / companions by dividing them in different types. Druid seems to transform in a generic beast creature and some utility powers let it transform in a generic small animal.

Also, the warden looks really awesome. I just have this willow-man in my head telling me that I shall not pass


Yep. I really like the halfbreed aspect to its shapeshifting. How it doesn't transform fully into a creature, but takes on some of its characteristics. Also pretty cool how its shapeshifting isn't limited to animals, but includes elements and plants, too (Form of the Willow Sentinel is nice).

Anyway, for those interested, the races and classes in the PHB2 are as follows:

RACES
Deva
Gnome
Goliath
Half-Orc
Shifter

CLASSES
Avenger [Divine Striker]
Barbarian [Primal Striker]
Bard [Arcane Leader]
Druid [Primal Controller]
Invoker [Divine Controller]
Shaman [Primal Leader]
Sorcerer [Arcane Controller]
Warden [Primal Defender]

[Dion of the Fraternity]

Hey yeah, druid STILL is a class, I overlooked that.

So now the question is: in classic Ravenloft, who among the major characters could be 4e wardens?

[Lord Soth]

I don't know about any potential Wardens, but I was thinking that Tara Kolyana may be an Invoker.

I flipped through Champions of the Mists, and I got a few thoughts.

Brother Dominic Invoker
Ivan Dragonov Barbarian
Gondegal Warlord
Tara Kolyana Invoker
Alanik Ray Rogue
Larissa Snowmane Shaman
George Weathermay Ranger

Both Brother Dominic and Tara Kolyana seem like the robed priestly type, so Invoker seemed more appropriate to them. And they've both got high Intelligence, so they could forego the chainmail and go for Covenant of Preservation.

Ivan Dragonov, the way he's described, sounds like a Barbarian to me ("making up for his size and relative slowness with a brutality and ferocity that few enemies could equal"). Maybe his race could be Shifter, too, to represent his lycanthropic taint? Give him an Execution Axe, the Ritual Caster Feat, and you'd be pretty well set.

Gondegal as a Warlord seems an easy fit to me, as he was a "masterful general" (Although not much of a king. Guess nobody's perfect).

We don't know much about the Shaman, except that it's a Primal Leader, but from a couple rumblings here and there, sounds like it's mostly a caster and possibly a summoner. That seems to suit Larissa better than Druid, which relies so much on wildshape nowadays (Haven't read the book in a while, but did she ever wildshape?). So if Shaman doesn't include mandatory shapeshifting, then it may be a good class for her.

As for George Weathermay, Ranger of course. Hell, you could probably even give him Beast Mastery, what with his dogs (Maybe only uses one per combat, or one of them died, or they both count as one creature in the combat).

Just some latenight thoughts, anyway.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

That's actually one of my favorite things. No longer will the following situation arise:

DM: We've got a Fighter, Mage, and Thief. So what're you gonna play?

PLAYER: I want to play a Bard.

DM: You... could do that, but the party could really use a Cleric.

PLAYER: ...I'll play a Cleric.

Pardon my 4e ignorance, but how is that different from:

DM: We've got a Warlord (leader), Wizard(controller), and Rogue (striker). So what're you gonna play?

PLAYER: I want to play a Bard (leader).

DM: You... could do that, but the party could really use a Defender.

PLAYER: ...I'll play a Paladin.


?

[Jester of the FoS]

Hey yeah, druid STILL is a class, I overlooked that.

So now the question is: in classic Ravenloft, who among the major characters could be 4e wardens?

As NPCs they'd be monsters.

[Paladyn]

Nice to know that that player can now play his Bard and the party will still be a wellrounded party. I never cared for the "5th Wheel" class that always felt like a burden to the party, rather than a benefit (A burden in the sense of "Well, that's cool, but man, it'd sure be nice if we had a Cleric or a Thief, instead").

As someone mentioned earlier, it could happen with new terminology. But, I have never had such situation, everytime I run adventure or campaign, I discuss with players available options. When situation arise, similar to one you described, I order brainstorm and changes.

This terminology and changes I see in 4E remind me MMORPG: poorer graphics, bur more options and surrounding is more responsive to players actions. Don't get me wrong, I played WoW and consider coming back (or playing Age of Conan), but when I want to play it, I turn PC on, when I want to play RPG, I call my players for session. But, we have drifted to far away from main course.

[Lord Soth]

Pardon my 4e ignorance, but how is that different from:

Difference is that there aren't any 5th wheel classes. A Bard isn't a class you take once you have a Fighter, Thief, Mage, and Cleric. Now it's a class which you can take in place of a Cleric and be perfectly fine. You'll likely often find a case when people want to get a wellrounded party, but now you can get a wellrounded party while giving people plenty of choices over the class they play. Instead of having to have a Cleric, you can take a Bard, Artificer, Shaman, or Warlord, instead. That's a vast improvement to me. And while the game assumes a balanced party (just as prior editions assumed a Fighter, Cleric, Mage, and Thief), it's not required. My party's been getting on just fine without a Wizard, for instance.

As NPCs they'd be monsters.

True. It's an old habit to break, picking and choosing what class a given NPC would be. But hey, it's fun.

But, I have never had such situation, everytime I run adventure or campaign, I discuss with players available options. When situation arise, similar to one you described, I order brainstorm and changes.

Guess our experiences differ, because I've run into that situation countless times. I'd get to games at a local gamestore and the rule would be "You can play whatever you want until we get to X number of players, at which point you have to 'plug the hole' and play a class that the group needs (I.E. Play a Fighter, Cleric, Rogue, or Wizard)". One of the players in our old gaming group almost invariably ended up playing the Cleric because nobody else wanted to play one (despite preferring the Bard).

This terminology and changes I see in 4E remind me MMORPG

They should, because MMO's stole that from D&D in the first place. It's not a coincidence that the basic MMO party mimics the standard D&D party of Fighter, Cleric, Thief, and Mage. Character roles have been in the game since its inception. They just haven't been called out as such, and they had classes which didn't fit in any roles (the aformentioned 5th wheel classes), or which fit more than one.

when I want to play RPG, I call my players for session.

I've had plenty of 4E sessions so far, and after 18 years of gaming, the experience doesn't seem all that different from any other RPG I've ever played (Well, except for Palladium. Trying to use the Palladium system made me want to rip out my eyeballs. Character creation, alone, nearly makes me vomit). New tools, same old RPG dynamics. Nothing really changes in that regard (which is a shame, because I'm always getting my ass kicked).