Hi all. First post in this awesome community. Not sure if this should go into Roleplaying Games or General Forum.
I got a bunch of 3.5 books borrowed from gaming buddies so I can plan a Ravenloft campaign for them. I'm still homebrewing the system (wich will likely come as a mix of True20 and SW Saga).
One player said he wanted to be a vistani. I said "I'm all for player freedom and out-of-the-box creativeness... but we'll have this, this and that issue to deal with".
Like, them having unlimited fear/death/domination gaze in Denizens Of Dread.
So. Have anyone allowed this before? How did you hadled it? Ideas on how could I?
Player wants to be a vistani
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crazybantha
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Rotipher of the FoS
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In the 2E book Van Richten's Guide to the Vistani, the idea of a Vistana becoming "mortu" was introduced. Basically, if a Vistana doesn't keep moving from place to place, but settles down or is held captive in a single location for a while, they quickly lose all of their special powers and become regular humans.
If your player wants to play a Vistana for role-playing reasons (i.e. he thinks the background would be cool), you could allow him to play a full-blooded mortu Vistana, who'd lost all special abilities before the campaign begins. Otherwise, if it's the spooky powers this player is really after, I'd limit his options to half-Vistani only: their racial traits give them a similar feel, but are in balance with other PC races.
Of course, game balance is only part of the issue here. The other issue with Vistani PCs is that when one of them is actually a member of the party, encounters with NPC Vistani tend to lose much of their eerie mystique. If you plan to use enigmatic Vistani seers as regular sources of information IYC, you might not want to sabotage the unnerving, mysterious atmosphere of such encounters, by having a PC who's entirely at ease with Vistani mannerisms and culture.
If your player wants to play a Vistana for role-playing reasons (i.e. he thinks the background would be cool), you could allow him to play a full-blooded mortu Vistana, who'd lost all special abilities before the campaign begins. Otherwise, if it's the spooky powers this player is really after, I'd limit his options to half-Vistani only: their racial traits give them a similar feel, but are in balance with other PC races.
Of course, game balance is only part of the issue here. The other issue with Vistani PCs is that when one of them is actually a member of the party, encounters with NPC Vistani tend to lose much of their eerie mystique. If you plan to use enigmatic Vistani seers as regular sources of information IYC, you might not want to sabotage the unnerving, mysterious atmosphere of such encounters, by having a PC who's entirely at ease with Vistani mannerisms and culture.
"Who [u]cares[/u] what the Dark Powers are? They're [i]bastards![/i] That's all I need to know of them." -- Crow
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Nikolas of the Mists
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One thing I have done for players that have wanted to be full blooded Vistani is to have them be mortu, but use the stats and abilities of the Half-Vistani to represent them still having an attachment to their kind. The stat modifiers of full blooded alone are ridiculous, before adding in the extra stuff. If you need stuff to pick from, use the RL Mainbook section on Vistani and not DoD.
The only way I have ever allowed Vistani PCs with access to their lineage powers was in a short series of three games I ran where *everyone* was of the blood, and even then I had to curtail a few of their abilities [like the Sight].
The only way I have ever allowed Vistani PCs with access to their lineage powers was in a short series of three games I ran where *everyone* was of the blood, and even then I had to curtail a few of their abilities [like the Sight].
"I wouldn't worry too much about the Vistana with the pistols --
If he wanted to kill you, he'd have done it already."
If he wanted to kill you, he'd have done it already."
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crazybantha
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Thanks for the feedback.
As you said, I checked it out and Vistani characters would indeed be too powerfull compared to other PCs' races. Unless it were the whole idea, it wouldn't work in my game. Your suggestions are very nice, and in fact I talked to the player about it.
He didn't want to be mortu, because it didn't match his character story. But we agreed that he couldn't have the racials traits, so we planned a particular in-game explanation, and the issue was settled.
If you are curious, this is what we planned so far (and I must say he was very creative, and left me with plot hooks on purpose, wich is awesome):
His character was part of the caravan that was cursed by Van Richten (when he discovered his son was sold to the vampire) and this player's character was one of the few vistani who managed to escape the slaughter. I didn't consult it in offical sources, but it was how we agreed it happened.
This had an impact on him. He changed. He started slowly to lose his blood powers and yet develop the Sight, but in a fashion he can't master, no matter how hard he tries. A greater emotion is making him travel the domains in search for a destiny he doesn't comprehend, but he is sure of this foresight and that it has something to do with Van Richten's rediscovery. As he understands, destiny itself is in motion to change the face of the land of mists, because he connects his visions to the Time of Unparalleled Darkness.
As you said, I checked it out and Vistani characters would indeed be too powerfull compared to other PCs' races. Unless it were the whole idea, it wouldn't work in my game. Your suggestions are very nice, and in fact I talked to the player about it.
He didn't want to be mortu, because it didn't match his character story. But we agreed that he couldn't have the racials traits, so we planned a particular in-game explanation, and the issue was settled.
If you are curious, this is what we planned so far (and I must say he was very creative, and left me with plot hooks on purpose, wich is awesome):
His character was part of the caravan that was cursed by Van Richten (when he discovered his son was sold to the vampire) and this player's character was one of the few vistani who managed to escape the slaughter. I didn't consult it in offical sources, but it was how we agreed it happened.
This had an impact on him. He changed. He started slowly to lose his blood powers and yet develop the Sight, but in a fashion he can't master, no matter how hard he tries. A greater emotion is making him travel the domains in search for a destiny he doesn't comprehend, but he is sure of this foresight and that it has something to do with Van Richten's rediscovery. As he understands, destiny itself is in motion to change the face of the land of mists, because he connects his visions to the Time of Unparalleled Darkness.
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Nikolas of the Mists
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crazybantha
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Rotipher of the FoS
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He might be able to wriggle out of being a true Dukkar, if you present his prophetic abilities in the right way. Perhaps his "prophecies" are really being projected into his mind or his dreams by the geist of a deceased female relative? He'd have to do some fast talking to convince other Vistani of this, mind you, but it'd at least give him an out: it's a female spirit that's fortelling the future, he's just the passive recipient of her revelations.
Perhaps this PC's mother fled from the tribe's growing corruption shortly after Erasmus was kidnapped, bringing the infant PC along with her. She died and became a prophetic spirit as a consequence of her flight, but at least her son was spared the fate of the other Radanaviches (i.e. death and revival as ghouls or zombies).
Perhaps this PC's mother fled from the tribe's growing corruption shortly after Erasmus was kidnapped, bringing the infant PC along with her. She died and became a prophetic spirit as a consequence of her flight, but at least her son was spared the fate of the other Radanaviches (i.e. death and revival as ghouls or zombies).
"Who [u]cares[/u] what the Dark Powers are? They're [i]bastards![/i] That's all I need to know of them." -- Crow
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Nikolas of the Mists
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Of course deception is always one way around it. Given the orientation on family beliefs and superstition the Vistani hold, it can be explained away within reason by reaching into the past.
"My mother always told me never trust women with red hair"
"On the last Winter morning this cold I buried three of my dearest adventuring companions. Stay alert, I do not intend to repeat it again."
"Some time ago, on a day not unlike this one, I was almost slaughtered by a monstrosity in this forest. I always wonder when it will come to finish me off..."
Basically anything that can be judged as awareness and experience rather than precognition will be reasoned away.
What Rotipher also mentioned could work -- revelations from a deceased relative's spirit, male or female could be a valid technique. More than one Raunie would object to the presence of a lost spirit around the fire though, so unless it is a known familial spirit that many of the caravan are used to I wouldn't count on it being welcome.
Pretending to be "haunted" or affected as such might work for a while, but given the connection female Vistani have to the spirits, and enlightenment gained through the sight, such ruses might not last long.
"My mother always told me never trust women with red hair"
"On the last Winter morning this cold I buried three of my dearest adventuring companions. Stay alert, I do not intend to repeat it again."
"Some time ago, on a day not unlike this one, I was almost slaughtered by a monstrosity in this forest. I always wonder when it will come to finish me off..."
Basically anything that can be judged as awareness and experience rather than precognition will be reasoned away.
What Rotipher also mentioned could work -- revelations from a deceased relative's spirit, male or female could be a valid technique. More than one Raunie would object to the presence of a lost spirit around the fire though, so unless it is a known familial spirit that many of the caravan are used to I wouldn't count on it being welcome.
Pretending to be "haunted" or affected as such might work for a while, but given the connection female Vistani have to the spirits, and enlightenment gained through the sight, such ruses might not last long.
"I wouldn't worry too much about the Vistana with the pistols --
If he wanted to kill you, he'd have done it already."
If he wanted to kill you, he'd have done it already."
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crazybantha
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Nice insights into the various possibilities. Thanks for that. They're enriching, cause I'm a newbie.
I must say, though, that we're not much interested in his relation with his tribe as his travels and new purpose. We didn't move in to the details yet, but he said his character went through sort of a "mystical experience" that recalls to his child event (the destruction of the caravan by the curse of Van Richten) and simply... changed, like when you compare a relative of your now and fifty years ahead, except the fifty years didn't pass for him. His peers saw him thereafter as someone alien to their world, not necessarily in a pejorative way, but since they're practical, he inevitably became an outcast - he should be viewed as a giomorgo.
He is simply taken by a lust for travel, as though his feet should take him somewhere he was meant to be. He travel the realms playing his flute in a strange way...
As for the Sight, in the beginning he probably hid it, along with the loss of the blood powers, from the others for a while, until he was finally discovered and cast out. It wasn't such a big issue, since the player seemed to emphasize how his character became sort of "posessed" by his new mental state, wich I pictured as an aloofness or obsessiveness (albeit not madness nor any lack of awareness or rationality).
I must say, though, that we're not much interested in his relation with his tribe as his travels and new purpose. We didn't move in to the details yet, but he said his character went through sort of a "mystical experience" that recalls to his child event (the destruction of the caravan by the curse of Van Richten) and simply... changed, like when you compare a relative of your now and fifty years ahead, except the fifty years didn't pass for him. His peers saw him thereafter as someone alien to their world, not necessarily in a pejorative way, but since they're practical, he inevitably became an outcast - he should be viewed as a giomorgo.
He is simply taken by a lust for travel, as though his feet should take him somewhere he was meant to be. He travel the realms playing his flute in a strange way...
As for the Sight, in the beginning he probably hid it, along with the loss of the blood powers, from the others for a while, until he was finally discovered and cast out. It wasn't such a big issue, since the player seemed to emphasize how his character became sort of "posessed" by his new mental state, wich I pictured as an aloofness or obsessiveness (albeit not madness nor any lack of awareness or rationality).
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Rotipher of the FoS
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Actually, most Vistani would probably try to kill this guy for being a male Seer, or at least permanently imprison him. Their legend of the Dukkar really is that scary: they wouldn't settle for just "casting out" their culture's equivalent of the Antichrist, IMO. And since Van Richten's vengeance slew all the other Radanaviches but one, he won't have any sympathetic tribemates to hide him, the way Hyskosa did.
Come to think of it, from what you've said about a lack of interest in his tribal roots, it might be better if this PC isn't a real Vistana, at all! What if the Radanaviches had actually abducted two giorgio children for Baron Metus, not just one? They'd originally been hired to steal the daughter of a nobleman, after all, but failed to get ahold of the girl the vampire had selected. Giving Metus two kidnapped giorgios as a consolation-prize, when their first abduction failed, might have been their means to placate the Baron's temper.
That would certainly explain why the PC wasn't slaughtered along with the Radanaviches: when Metus picked Erasmus over the other boy, the tribe kept the second child with them to hold for ransom, and the undead passed over their helpless captive as they attacked. Van Richten fled the scene, horrified by the massacre his fury had unleashed, and unwittingly left the other kidnapped child behind. Traumatized by the proximity of so many deaths, the boy's mind became unglued, and he blotted out most of his life up to then, save a few fragmentary memories of riding in their vardos.
Later, coming to his senses in Vistani garments, the young PC became convinced that he had been one of the Radanaviches. He'd had a dark complexion to begin with (Rajian blood?), and had been a prisoner long enough to pick up a few words in their dialect, so his misconception that he's Vistani isn't unreasonable. His prophetic visions might be something that a repentant Radanavich spirit -- one of the women who'd disagreed with their raunie's cruel policies, and had pitied the two captive boys -- passes on to him, to keep him safe ... or they might be purely imaginary, not valid prophecies at all.
In any case, this would certainly explain his lack of Vistani abilities, as well as why the other tribes haven't hunted him down like a dog. They can sense he's not got a drop of true Vistani blood, hence doesn't qualify as a Dukkar. Yet -- so far at least -- those Vistani he's met also have enough sympathy for his situation that they haven't had the heart to tell him the truth, and reawaken his childhood trauma.
The biggest role-playing payoff of this, BTW, is that his real parents may still be alive somewhere, and he might eventually find them, if and when he comes to terms with his true origins.
Just a thought. If you do like it, you could explore this idea with the player's knowing cooperation, or you could play up the mystery of his PC's past, eventually letting his character discover the truth for himself.
Come to think of it, from what you've said about a lack of interest in his tribal roots, it might be better if this PC isn't a real Vistana, at all! What if the Radanaviches had actually abducted two giorgio children for Baron Metus, not just one? They'd originally been hired to steal the daughter of a nobleman, after all, but failed to get ahold of the girl the vampire had selected. Giving Metus two kidnapped giorgios as a consolation-prize, when their first abduction failed, might have been their means to placate the Baron's temper.
That would certainly explain why the PC wasn't slaughtered along with the Radanaviches: when Metus picked Erasmus over the other boy, the tribe kept the second child with them to hold for ransom, and the undead passed over their helpless captive as they attacked. Van Richten fled the scene, horrified by the massacre his fury had unleashed, and unwittingly left the other kidnapped child behind. Traumatized by the proximity of so many deaths, the boy's mind became unglued, and he blotted out most of his life up to then, save a few fragmentary memories of riding in their vardos.
Later, coming to his senses in Vistani garments, the young PC became convinced that he had been one of the Radanaviches. He'd had a dark complexion to begin with (Rajian blood?), and had been a prisoner long enough to pick up a few words in their dialect, so his misconception that he's Vistani isn't unreasonable. His prophetic visions might be something that a repentant Radanavich spirit -- one of the women who'd disagreed with their raunie's cruel policies, and had pitied the two captive boys -- passes on to him, to keep him safe ... or they might be purely imaginary, not valid prophecies at all.
In any case, this would certainly explain his lack of Vistani abilities, as well as why the other tribes haven't hunted him down like a dog. They can sense he's not got a drop of true Vistani blood, hence doesn't qualify as a Dukkar. Yet -- so far at least -- those Vistani he's met also have enough sympathy for his situation that they haven't had the heart to tell him the truth, and reawaken his childhood trauma.
The biggest role-playing payoff of this, BTW, is that his real parents may still be alive somewhere, and he might eventually find them, if and when he comes to terms with his true origins.
Just a thought. If you do like it, you could explore this idea with the player's knowing cooperation, or you could play up the mystery of his PC's past, eventually letting his character discover the truth for himself.
"Who [u]cares[/u] what the Dark Powers are? They're [i]bastards![/i] That's all I need to know of them." -- Crow
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crazybantha
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Compelling story! Like you said, I'll have to present it to him, and ask if he'd like to follow the suggestion or something similar (I'm pretty sure working without his consent would displease him - heavy interfering on a player's beloved character story without warrant is not healthy for a GM!Rotipher of the FoS wrote:What if the Radanaviches had actually abducted two giorgio children for Baron Metus, not just one?
)Apparently, he's been working on his char's story so far, so I'll have a look and maybe bring it here for you all. I might need advice on consistency check.
By the way, I'm now convinced that, if he's vistani, we'll have to work on something about him being hunted by his peers (and all possibilities explained so far are pretty cool). Maybe we'll go by-the-book, or we'll have to get creative, depending on his excitement. Anyway, thanks once again.
Re: Player wants to be a vistani
Just say no. You don't need to indulge every whim.crazybantha wrote:Hi all. First post in this awesome community. Not sure if this should go into Roleplaying Games or General Forum.
I got a bunch of 3.5 books borrowed from gaming buddies so I can plan a Ravenloft campaign for them. I'm still homebrewing the system (wich will likely come as a mix of True20 and SW Saga).
One player said he wanted to be a vistani. I said "I'm all for player freedom and out-of-the-box creativeness... but we'll have this, this and that issue to deal with".
Like, them having unlimited fear/death/domination gaze in Denizens Of Dread.
So. Have anyone allowed this before? How did you hadled it? Ideas on how could I?
You can't have S-L-A-U-G-H-T-E-R without L-A-U-G-H-T-E-R.