Ultimate Ravenloft: Should we?

[WolfKook]

Some two years ago, Igor started this thread asking people what would they change on the setting, if there was the hypothetical possibility of a retcon. Remember Jonathan Winters hinting that if we retconned Ravenloft and start telling the story again but with a twist, we should call it "Ultimate Ravenloft"?

Well, the exact same name came again a couple of weeks ago, as Gonzoron was giving advice to Zettaijin on this thread on how to keep using overly popular characters (i.e. the Darklords) adapting them to changes in the world, without replacing them outright.

So I was thinking. Even as a purely creative exercise, even if it never sees publication, even if it's only for us... Shouldn't we do it? An "Ultimate Ravenloft" would be a perfect opportunity to fix spatial or temporal inconsistencies, the problems with population sizes, and the problems with "clunky" domains; it would give us the opportunity to re-create the world making it more interesting, removing some of the excess baggage (Say, useless domains, lame darklords), bringing back some of the original key-points (Rudolph Van Richten, the prophecies), mixing some of the recent cool stuff that wasn't at the beginning (Calibans, , the church of Ezra, the Political tension), and adding our proven vast imagination to the mix, to re-create the setting we love in a new light, with a fresh look and a renewed charm that entices new players.

Well, this post is just to tease a little, and to see if there would be any interest in such a project (If not, what's the point of doing it?). If the project is welcomed, I'll proceed on describing how could it be done.

So, what do you think?

[Jester of the FoS]

You mean like Expedition to Castle Ravenloft?

[Isabella]

You mean like Expedition to Castle Ravenloft?

Yes! A alternative-universe reinterpretation of the Domains of Dread that includes both the classic elements and new elements, which allowed the setting to innovate while at the same time not forcing the changes on those who didn't like it, by way of it not being cannon.

Wait, everyone here hated that.

NO! Absolutely nothing like that! It will be fantastic and wonderful and most of all NOT EtCR.

I think you should do it. I think that would be a smashing idea for 4e Ravenloft but... oh dear, no one here likes that either...

[Ryan Naylor]

I think making changes that even 60% of the people here could agree on would be more difficult than you think.

[Isabella]

You may have to designate someone who has the final say on the project, but the board has yet to collapse into flames when a Gazetteer is released.

[Mangrum]

I think making changes that even 60% of the people here could agree on would be more difficult than you think.

Heh. Yeah; even the Kargatane couldn't really come together on that one.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

I think you should do it. I think that would be a smashing idea for 4e Ravenloft but... oh dear, no one here likes that either...

Well, I wouldn't want to see it be the default setting for 4e Ravenloft because I personally prefer a continuation of the existing Ravenloft. (Regardless of how I feel about the system, I would still buy 4e RL, at least for the fluff). This is precisely why Marvel didn't cancel it's main series when it launched the Ultimate line. While some fans want a a fresh start, some enjoy the decades of continuity, missteps and all. So I have no problems with an Ultimate Ravenloft as long as it doesn't replace RL proper.

So, in brief, go for it. But as Ryan and Mangrum said (and they should know) once you start talking about cutting out "useless" and "lame" stuff, you're bound to find someone willing to defend them. (Yes, even I'Cath.) But you can take that as an opportunity to reinvent those things and make them less lame. I haven't read much of them, but from what I've heard, the Marvel Ultimate line did just that with some formerly lame characters.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

You may have to designate someone who has the final say on the project, but the board has yet to collapse into flames when a Gazetteer is released.

True. But you have to allow, there's a difference between expanding on what's gone before and actually re-writing it. Not unlike the difference between making a Star Wars prequal, and retroactively declaring that Greebo shot first in the cantina.

[Strahdsbuddy]

Oh Rotipher, why did you have to use THAT example!!!! ::whimpers in corner::

Without blowing up too much of the setting, i love the idea of re-integrating the Black Box with a sort of "What have we learned" aaspect, particularly with the great Gazeteer work that has been done, and super add-ons like the Church of Ezra. Oh 735, it was a very good year, but think of what we were all missing!

The focus should fall less on eliminating the lameness and more on integrating--with continuity-- the body of work that has made the setting great.

I'll insert one last call for an updated timeline here....

[WolfKook]

You mean like Expedition to Castle Ravenloft?

Thanks, Jester. Talk about throwing a project to the trash.

NO! Absolutely nothing like that! It will be fantastic and wonderful and most of all NOT EtCR.

Now, that's the support I was looking for, thanks, Isabella!

I think making changes that even 60% of the people here could agree on would be more difficult than you think.

Mmmmmmhhhh... I think you're right. I've already seen a lot of the discussions here, and to make people agree on some things is harder than to set 20 monkeys for a photo shoot. Well, at least we could try...

You may have to designate someone who has the final say on the project, but the board has yet to collapse into flames when a Gazetteer is released.

Yes. I agree. Anyone who wants to be in charge of such a horrible task?

...I have no problems with an Ultimate Ravenloft as long as it doesn't replace RL proper.

It wouldn't, and it couldn't. It would be a purely creative exercise on this list and, as such, completely non-canon, unlike the books released by TSR and Arthaus. It couln't replace them. Ever.

I was thinking about making it "Rules independent", but I also like the idea of integrating it with 4th edition. Well, at least if we include rules, they won't be added at the beginning of the project. There are a lot of things to do before that.

Talking about that, I envision the outline of the first phase of the project ("The Core") as follows:

• Domains of the Core: Deciding which domains should belong into the Core (Because of cultural and geographical features, even those from clusters or islands, and some fan-made), and which shouldn't (Even those which are in the official version). Which domains should merge, and which should be absorved by others (As written, "The Core" should be understood as just the mainland, excluding the Sea of Sorrows and the Nocturnal Sea).

• Geography of the Core: Using cultural ("German" domains, "Celtic" domains) and political (4 Towers vs. Falkovnia, Barovia/Gundaarak/Invidia) factors to determine the relative positioning of domains in the Ultimate Core, and thinking about dimensions and distances.

• Who's Doomed? Decisions about who should be the darklord of each domain (maybe Mordenheim could be the Darklord of Lamordia instead of Adam, as some have suggested in other threads, for example)

• Rough Timeline of the Core: To ensure the setting's internal consistency, there should be a general timeline that should be respected before writing the darklords' backgrounds. It should start as a rough sketch, involving just key events as the date of each domain appearance, and other which would be discussed on the list.

• Character Write-Ups: Ravenloft is a very character-centric setting, and the darklords and other important movers/shakers (as Van Richten) define it. So, their background and current schemes are very important to bring the setting to life. The write-ups would not include rule information; they be written by volunteers, and discussed for aproval (I, for one, would love to see a HuManBing's version of Drakov).

• Domain Write-Ups: After creating the Darklords, it would be time for creating the domains they live in. They should be rough, to give space to individual DMs to fill in, but full of potential hooks and rumours to create adventures.

• Finishing Touches: That step would include making a map, completing and revising the timeline for internal consistency, creating a "false history" timeline, and thinking on political tensions and other important things to take into account on the setting.

What do you think?

[Wiccy of the Fraternity]

I think making changes that even 60% of the people here could agree on would be more difficult than you think.

Mmmmmmhhhh... I think you're right. I've already seen a lot of the discussions here, and to make people agree on some things is harder than to set 20 monkeys for a photo shoot. Well, at least we could try...

If you can get Drucilla on board you may get about 90% of the others convinced to follow her. She's pretty scary, just ask the FoS staff

[DeepShadow of FoS]

I think the key to such a project is to establish certain underlying rules for the setting tone and theme, and then rework every DL who does not fit this. For example, if DL's only arise out of malicious acts committed with deliberation and malice aforethought, then Malken needs to be reworked and Easan must at least be clarified. If mere bodycount isn't enough, then Draga needs an overhaul, and so on.

So before we start assigning roles, how about we hammer out these rules?

[Strahdsbuddy]

I'll go on record saying body count should never determine darklordship. Callous as it sounds, just killing people isn't enough to get the attention of the DP and that was never the flavor of the gameworld. A human aspect of every DL (Even the God-Brain) should be a requirement. They are scariest when we see how close we can come to becoming them.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

In tandem with the "There But For The Grace Of Ezra" factor, I'd suggest a rule that darklords must always have a choice. Circumstances may conspire to propel them toward their downfall, and their own willful blindness might skew their perspective at the time, yet the decision to do evil must ultimately be theirs, not something forced upon them.

Yes, this would mean some re-working of one or two existing darklords' backgrounds. But that's the sort of issue this revived version (Ravenloft 2.0?) is intended to resolve, isn't it?

[impworks]

Personally I'd say that all darklords should be good villains for the Ravenloft setting. Once we reduce the choice to some set of rules codified into a Dark Power's handbook all we do is lose flavour from the setting. I'd suggest that they should each have a unique element so we can have multiple vampire darklords but they have to have a different take on being a vampire villain and not just another Strahd clone. So what you need is a list of darklords and a simple, one line explanation of why they are a darklord that is clearly distinctive from all the others.

Things I'd like to see (that I did in my take on Ravenloft after the grand conjunction)...

More realm's with multiple Darklord's.

Pull more of the clusters into the core and settle them around the seas or for smaller domains slot them into other bits of the world. This makes a nautical Ravenloft campaign far more interesting. This also allows other domains to move to better locations rather than get the boot (specifically Valachan to somewhere more exotic).

Move domains to make Ravenlofts weather patterns make sense (I'd swapped Mordent and Dementileu over for a start).

Scale the world up in dimension, population and economics to give it a grander feel. It allows more believable ecologies where one werewolf pack has a population large enough to support it. Mordent should take more than a day to cross by coach.

Mentioning Mordent (a domain I really like) - could we make the principle settlement Mordent and the domain Mordentshire please - only a little change but would make so much more sense as someone who was born and grew up in three shire counties and their principal cities.

Where appropriate separate rulership from darklord (hope that makes sense). Forlorn is a run down, unruly region of Barovia in my take and similar situations occur with other "uncivilized" areas adjoining more civilized realms. A map showing political boundaries would be great.