Revolvers?

[lordsathien]

Seeing as the earliest revolver has been dated to be made in 1680, would a revolver firearm be believable in a CL 9 domain like Dementlieu? And if so, how could I statistically differentiate it from a pistol (besides the obvious increase in rate of fire)?

[Coan]

A few ideas:

-Water resistant (no external powder to wet);
-Can be used as a basic melee weapon (pistol whip) for 1d4;
-Increased rate of fire as you have already mentioned;
-Heavier and with more metal used in it (chill metal or shape metal spell anyone?);
-Damage could be slightly more e.g. instead of 1d10 it could be 2d6 or 1d8+1 or 2 given that the projectile would be more likely to kill outright (ignoring the tremendous amount of health damage caused by infection from primitive shot).

[HuManBing]

A few quick and dirty house rules that you might want to use with firearms:

• Armor no longer provides any deflection bonus at all. It's just as easy to shoot somebody wearing full plate as it is somebody unarmored. In fact it's probably easier, given the Dex penalty they'll take.
• Armor could provide some DR against a firearm. I'm leaning towards a DR of half the AC bonus (round fractions down).
• The main risk of a firearm wound is blood loss. If the shooter has a good aim, you can disrupt organs enough that the initial shot will kill, but even a nonfatal location can still lead to death through blood loss. I'd suggest keeping the damage something comparable to a crossbow bolt (1d8) but increase the crit threat range (17-20) and/or increase the crit multiplier (x3 or greater). Add in bleeding damage each round, maybe 1d6 or so, to be re-rolled each round. Any healing magic or a successful DC 15 Heal check as a full round action will stop the bleeding damage.
• For multiple shots ("burst fire") against a single target, a person might declare ahead of time how many shots to fire, and use the same attack roll for all. (Rather like the double-shot crossbow used by the Falkovnians.) Because each shot after the first will degrade in aiming, I'd use the first attack roll at normal and then apply a -1 or -2 to each shot afterwards (no crit possibility). To balance, because of the difficulty in fine aiming, I would say burst fire can never result in a crit. If a person wants to make several aimed shots, as opposed to burst fire shots, they have to be treated like separate attacks, and thus feats come into play.
• If you want to really drive home the dangerous nature of firearms and the uselessness of armor, have a house rule that you must take off armor in order to get at the bleeding. Looking at the rules for donning/removing armor, you can see all armor takes 10 rounds to remove, or 5 with help. That means 5 rounds of bleeding damage before the Heal check can be made!

So you have a touch attack weapon that does, on average, 4.5 hp damage per trigger pull, without taking armor or crits into account. The only effective AC against it will be Dex. Assuming the target has a Dex of 18, this will be an effective AC of 14.

However, the other side of the coin is that armor provides 1/2 DR. So if somebody's wearing a chain shirt (which still allows +4 Dex bonus), they now have 2 DR against each shot fired at them. This reduces the average damage to 2.625 hp instead of 4.5 hp. Somebody wearing full plate would have no Dex bonus to AC but would have DR of 4, reducing the average damage to 1.25 hp. (This is still not particularly effective against a burst fire, see below, because the main damage dealer is the bleeding, and having a bad AC will worsen that more than a good DR will improve it.)

Armor DR has no effect against the blood loss mechanism unless it stops the bullet entirely. Even a grazing hit that doesn't do much flesh trauma can still open up a large surface wound or open a major artery that bleeds profusely. Head injuries, even those that do not penetrate the skull, are especially known to bleed a lot before stopping, if ever.

If you allow the "burst fire" method, I strongly suggest you remove any chance of a crit from it, or put the crit range to a natural 20. It will do up to 6 x 4.5 = 27 hp straight off, and each shot will continue to bleed. Assuming each shot hits, that's 6 x 3.5 = 21 hp damage per round afterwards from blood loss.

If the increased range for crit is allowed, then each non-burst shot has a 1:5 chance of being a critical threat. On a critical hit, if the multiplier is x3, the average damage will be 13.5 hp for the initial shot.

If the bleeding mechanism is used at 1d6, each round the victim loses on average 3.5 hp. It's up to you whether this includes the first round. If it does, then the average damage of a normal shot is 8 hp (which is a little greater than the average damage for a greatsword, at 7 hp) and the average crit damage is 17 hp.

The bleeding damage recurs each round, for an average of 3.5 more damage, or 7 hp by the second round (enough to kill most 1st level Sorc/Wiz and Rogues). By the third round average damage is 10.5 (enough to kill most 1st level characters, possibly excluding Fighters and Barbarians). By the fourth round the average damage is 14 hp (enough to kill most 2nd level rogues, 3rd level Sorc/Wiz). By the fifth round the average damage is 17.5 hp (enough to kill an "average" L2 Fighter whose hp averages at 10+5.5 = 15.5, excluding Con).

The fifth-round calculation is important if you require armor to be removed before Heal checks can proceed. Most armors take 10 rounds to remove, or 5 if the wounded has assistance from another (most likely the healer). For really heavy armors, like the plate armors, the person will require 1d4+1 minutes (average 3.5 minutes), cut in half (average of 17 rounds). If you choose to include this mechanic, expect to see a lot of people dying of blood loss in full or half plate, in accordance with real-world battlefield history.

All in all, there's a lot of stuff you can do with this, and almost all of them require house rules. Pick and choose at your leisure!

[Jester of the FoS]

Keep in mind while bullets went through heavy armour, so did arrows.
While not everyone had the pull to penetrate, crossbows made it more common. Armour was more a protection against the large heavy swords that were really big, heavy, blunt objects with a slight edge.

[alhoon]

Not wanting to spoil your fun all, but no, Whenever the first revolver was made, I think that revolvers in Dementlieu wouldn't be believable. Remember that Dementlieu isn't French Revolution period. It is more a 3 muskeeters period.

[Jester of the FoS]

The first revolver was made then, which means there might be rare prototypes and the work of mad geniuses (ie gnomes and Lamordians).

Just the kind of thing heroes might find themselves in possession of.

[Archedius]

The thing is- a lot of the plate armors that were still used when gunpowder became a key part of militaries could be expected to reliably stop most musketballs and arrows- crossbow bolts were still a problem. The main risk for knights was having their horses killed.
Dismounted knights could be held back by pikes and picked off- if they could get up from the fall. If they didn't they could expect to either be trampled or beaten to death by clubs/stabbed to death. Eventually we see cavalry switch to cuirasses instead of full plate and take a backseat compared to infantry and later artillery.

[Georg Kristianokov]

Yes! Finally! Someone besides myself knows of ancient revolvers! I have pictures (sorry, they're in a book) of revolvers from 1587 and 1550! I also have a picture of a flintlock "lady-gun" (extremely small, like .22 calibre) that is a lever action! I've also read that Britain has put forth efforts to create a magazine musket.

These are rules I made from these pictures (they're probably unbalanced though):

Weapon Augmentations

Blades

Serrated Edges
CL: 3+
Qualities: deals an extra 25% damage to target
Cost: +20 cp


Fire-Arms

Extra Barrel
CL: 8+ for rifle, 9+ for pistol
Qualities: Adds another gun barrel, +2 lbs. Weight.
Cost: +10 gp for rifle, +15 for pistol

Special Lock
CL: 9+
Qualities: Can only be taken with 2+ barrels. Allows all barrels to be fired at once.
Cost: +20 sp

Breech-Lock
CL: 9+
Qualities: Makes the fire-arm easier to reload, and reloads twice as fast.
Cost: +100 gp for rifle, +150 for pistol

Lever Action
CL: 9+
Qualities: Can only be taken with a Breech-Lock and Internal Magazine, and allows the weapon to be reloaded as a standard action.
Cost: +200 gp for rifles, +400 gp for pistols

Internal Magazine
CL: 9+
Qualities: Allows the gun to hold extra bullets.
Cost:+145 gp for rifle (2 extra shots), +290 for pistol (2 extra shots)

Blades
CL: 7+
Qualities: the weapon has sharp blade attached to it. The blade can be used as a secondary melee weapon.
Cost: as blade +50%

Rifling
CL: 9+
Qualities: Due to spiral grooves cut into the barrel, the weapon has a doubled range increment.
Cost: +4 gp for a rifle, +8 gp for a pistol.

Sights
CL: 8+
Qualities: On the end of the weapon is a bead, perfectly aligned with the two pieces of metal on the very tip of the nose. When lined up (a move-equivalent action), the target is counted as one range increment closer. If said target is within one range increment, the penalty for being to far away (-1, -2, -3…) is reversed (+1, +2, +3)
Cost: +8 gp for a rifle, +16 gp for a pistol.

Telescopic Sight
CL: 9+
Qualities: A spyglass is attached over the barrel of a gun, and when aimed through (a full round action) the target counts as being two range increments closer. If said target is within one range increment, the penalty for being to far away (-1, -2, -3…) is reversed and doubled (+2, +4, +6). A minor drawback is that when using the scope, the weapon counts as a reach weapon (reach ten feet).
Cost: +1,000 gp for a rifle, +1,500 for a pistol


Ammunition

Armor-Piercing
CL: 7+
Qualities: Extra-sharp, with all force concentrated on a small point. Target’s Armor bonus is ignored.
Cost: +5 sp/bullet

Hollow
CL: 9+
Qualities: Can be filled with liquid.
Cost: +10 gp

Shockers
CL: 9+
Qualities: Can only be used for a Blunderbuss. They deal subdual damage after delivering a shock.
Cost: +50 gp

Rifled Bullets
CL: 8+
Qualities: Only these bullets, which have an outer ring around their middle, can be used to gain the benefits of a rifled weapon.
Cost: +1 gp per 10 bullets.

[HuManBing]

Keep in mind while bullets went through heavy armour, so did arrows.

Yes, a good longbow made of Welsh yew was rightly feared by mounted knights, as it would go through platemail with no problems.

Edit: "It" meaning the arrow, not the bow.

Come to think of it, a DR system for armor makes a lot more sense than the current AC bonus.

[Isabella]

Come to think of it, a DR system for armor makes a lot more sense than the current AC bonus.

There's rules for that in Star Wars Saga, as well as Unearthed Arcana. It's close to what you just said; half the usual armor rating is given to AC (deflection) and half is converted to DR.

Also, since Paridon is based off Victorian England revolvers might not be uncommon there (and all bets are off in Lamordia). And what's stopping them from being imported to Dementlieu aside from the cost?

[Archedius]

That's not entirely true though- many tests have been done about this: several factors go against that statement.

1. The metal in the arrowheads was often of poorer quality than was employed in plate--->density advantage

2. The arc of the shot: Longbows weren't made for being fired directly at individuals- they were for long distance volleys and weren't fired directly at the enemy very often (not to mention they had power but poorer accuracy as a weapon) the downward angle meant that impacts with plate would be on an angle, severely lowering the chance of penetration.

3. Plate was often made without flat surfaces-> this means there's less of a chance for an arrow to bite in. This goes without saying that padding was worn underneath the plate to boot.

Crossbows were mildly effective because they could be fired in a more direct path with an expectation of accuracy along with power and didn't take a ton of training to use effectively. Even then- some plate was extremely resistant to bolts.
It basically comes down to arrows--->infantry and horses. It would take a very lucky bowshot to hit an exposed joint or find one of the eyeslits on an armored knight. It was the horses that were knights achilles' heel; once they were taken out the knight would have to advance on foot- bereft of the height and speed advantage. The battle of Crecy is proof of this.
For some reason people have it in their heads that longbows could take out anything and that's simply not true. They gave a range advantage and thinned infantry lines(BTW many medieval infantry were poorly armored- in many battles even lacking helmets!) but they were simply a means to an end and were jsut as important as the pikemen and armored cavalry. Perhaps its the movies propagating that fallacy or the defunct theories of deceased medieval historians; I don't know but it is a pet peeve of mine.

[LouisVendredi]

The first revolver was made then, which means there might be rare prototypes and the work of mad geniuses (ie gnomes and Lamordians).

My players just got their hands on the first six-shooters which they confiscated from a mad Lamordian gnome genius.

[Georg Kristianokov]

Any thoughts on my rules?

[Lord_Pruitt]

Another idea to throw out about being shot, is suffering from shock. A lot of people, after being shot by any type of gun, have the more immediate fear of dying from shock rather than blood loss. Course, that is the effects in our modern world. I think its the cause/effect of our modern media spilling over into something that most people don't understand - the whole "oh my god! I've been shot!" syndrome, which causes their body to go into shock. This causes the body's temperature to rapidly drop, for the person to become disoriented and lose consciousness. Combined with the blood loss, this can quickly kill the injured person.

But the problem with this is, in a world where it is common for people to be attacked with melee weapons, would a person truly be concerned about being shot? Enough for them to go into shock?

If you wanted to include this in your campaign, you could make a house rule something like this -

1) when damaged by these odd weapons, the target needs to make a Save (difficulty based on familiarity with the weapon, fear modifiers, etc. etc.) - kinda like the old system shock rolls.

2) Success means that they don't go into shock; failure means that they will pass out in half their CON in rounds, losing 1 CON per round until first aide is rendered. Even then, they must be kept warm, wrapped in a blanket or some such until they recover.

3) To recover, they need to make a second Save - success, they regain consciousness in 1/4 CON score in rounds, failure means they continue taking CON damage and start losing 1 hp per round as well.

Course, all this is if you want to add some dreaded realism to the game and make firearms that much more lethal.

Just an idea....

[LouisVendredi]

Any thoughts on my rules?

Well thought out. Much more elaborate than mine. I basically just used the standard pistol with 6 shots before a full round reload and a +1 or +2 for exceptional craftsmanship.