Why would destroying Ravenloft be a bad thing?

[Sylaire]

Mind you, I don't mean Ravenloft-the-game-setting; I mean Ravenloft-the-demiplane. Let's keep that straight!

I'm especially tying this back into "Roots of Evil," but essentially what I'm getting at is the idea, from the Vistani's POV (and yes, IDHTBIFOM--that's really useful, Roti! --so I'm probably getting this somewhat wrong), that blowing up Ravenloft and dumping all the assorted nasties back into their original source worlds (um, or their root domain's original source world, given that many of said nasties are RL natives) would be a Bad Thing for the Universe--that the Grand Conjunction is something the PCs should try really, really hard to stop from happening.

But when you get right down to brass tacks, the thing that makes so many of the Ravenloft monsters scary and nasty is the fact that they're in Ravenloft, playing by the Dark Powers' "house rules." The vast majority of said nasties, when sent into places like Krynn, the Forgotten Realms, or Oerth, can be dealt with properly and permanently by the direct application of force in traditional FRPG style.

Consider werewolves--and lycanthropes in general, really. Scary, yes...but the real nastiness behind a werewolf encounter isn't that it might kill your character but that it might tag your character with lycanthropy. Out of Ravenloft you toss a remove curse on it and hey, problem solved.

Then there are the darklords. I mean, half of the things have the "Undying Soul" keeping them going. Drop Draga Salt-Biter back into the Sea of Fallen Stars and wait for the next wandering drow ranger to sail by, and the problem is permanently solved. Hazlik was just one guy from a nation of evil wizards, and a laughable failure in that society, at that! Meredoth's a fragging scary max-level necromancer, and yet his home nation of Alphatia on Mystara, during the period when he was there (when Alphatia owned Norwold and was granting domains...man, those CM modules were fun adventures...) had one thousand max-level wizards running around in its population.

Heck, let's go right to the top of the list: Azalin Rex himself, the biggest, baddest darklord of them all (except maybe Gwydion, but I don't know enough about him to say). Take Azalin and drop him back into Oerth as-is, with Darkon and all his darklord powers intact, and he's still just barely beating out the Horned Society for third place on the Nastiest Evil Nation On Oerth hit parade (after Iuz and, ironically, his own home nation of the Great Kingdom...and I may be missing a couple, because I haven't read my good ol' 1st Edition World of Greyhawk setting in ten years or so...). Put him back as Azalin the Lich, with no nation and no evil curse, and he's just another Iggwilv or Acerack or Zuggtmoy or whomever--sure, a big nasty guy, but one of a herd of big nasty guys.

In conclusion: if the meta-goal is to have these evil creatures do the least amount of damage to the least amount of people, the universe is better-off dumping them out of Ravenloft and out into places where the natural laws enable them to be more easily killed. Mind you--that doesn't address at all some of the other meta-issues (such as "Ravenloft doesn't exist for darklords to be killed, but to imprison them and torture them, possibly over centuries!" or "And just what makes you think those so-called 'innocent people' getting hurt in Ravenloft really exist--or if they do exist, that their souls aren't just lemures, larva, and manes being pulled out of the Lower Planes and getting reincarnated to give 'em a second chance at life and to work off their sins through the beneficience of the Higher Powers?") but from the point of view of "What's the best way to kill Azalin" point of view, the answer really seems to be, "Help him escape to Oerth and let Mordenkainen and Bigby do the job for you."

Discuss.

[DeepShadow of FoS]

I brought this up back when the original GC went down. I didn't see the problem, so I wrote up my own metastory: the GC wasn't just the release of the darklords. That was just the start. The GC would have released the Dark Powers on the worlds.

This is implied, actually, in From the Shadows. The Prime Material Barovia actually starts to play by Ravenloft rules, as if the entire multiverse was going to RL in a handbasket. Case in point, the guard at the alternate Castle Ravenloft complains about the inablity to discern alignments magically.

[Sylaire]

Which brings up a question--does that mean that Ravenloft, "the shadow prison," isn't a prison for the darklords at all, but a place where the Higher Powers of good and evil alike imprisoned the Dark Powers?

(And every 1000 years, the seal weakens, so that they're able to force their way free, and only a chosen hero can...oh, wait, no, that's just the plot of every other console JRPG. )

[Nathan of the FoS]

Which brings up a question--does that mean that Ravenloft, "the shadow prison," isn't a prison for the darklords at all, but a place where the Higher Powers of good and evil alike imprisoned the Dark Powers?

(And every 1000 years, the seal weakens, so that they're able to force their way free, and only a chosen hero can...oh, wait, no, that's just the plot of every other console JRPG. )

That was my take in...uh, let me see if I can find the thread again...

EDIT: Here it is. Third or fourth post down.

I think it's a really interesting idea and one that can be used to help explain a lot of things, like "why the Demiplane consists of domains in Mist", "why the Grand Conjunction was such a bad thing", and "what's the story with the Vistani anyway?"

[HuManBing]

My reason for why the Grand Conjunction is so bad is that when it happens, Ravenloft's "Dark Powers House Rules" (as you put them) become the default rules for the entire multiverse.

Thus, undead are hard to turn, divination magic doesn't show up any good/evil alignment, and so forth.

I've mentioned this idea before and it's encountered some heavy resistance from forum regulars who get bogged down in a theological debate about whether Dark Powers are more or less powerful than gods. They also tend to ask why I think Dark Powers would do certain things (because they're supposed to be unknowable) while then happily telling me what THEY THINK the Dark Powers should do (because, like they've just posited, they're unknowable).

It is not my intention to start another such discussion at this time.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

Issues of what the Conjunction could theoretically have done to the wider multiverse (i.e. permanent Masque effect everywhere) aside, there's no proof that the Vistani have perfect knowledge in this. It's possible that, as omniscient as they collectively seem in Ravenloft, most simply don't know enough about the planes beyond the Mists to realize how out-classed many darklords would be, on their worlds of origin.

It's also possible that they knew damn well that the darklords weren't as overwhelming a threat outside Ravenloft as inside, but the Vistani who'd recruited PCs' help in the Conjunction modules exaggerated that threat to ensure the heroes would intervene. In reality, the Vistani might simply have wanted to save their world from falling apart, and didn't believe that a bunch of giorgio outlanders would care what happened to the Land, unless their own homeworlds also seemed to be in danger. Remember that Vistani have very low expectations of giorgios -- no matter how "heroic" -- and few feel even the slightest moral obligation to be honest with them.

[Jack of Tears]

What makes you think the dark powes don't want you to start a discussion like that? They're unknowable, you realize.

Seriously, though, the pcs will want to stop the Conjunction because they don't realize any of those points you made ... so far as they are concerned some terrible evil will be released and run rampant - or whatever they're lead to believe, I didn't pay much attention to the conjunction, didn't care for it.

Still, if the pcs realize how evil Azalin is, and that he might terrorize an entire world, they want to stop that ... never knowing that he'd suddenly become just another fish in an ocean full of fish. (and sharks)

Plus, there's the question of what happens to all the people when the conjunction occurs ... can they survive the event? Only way to tell is let it happen, or stop it and be sure to save lives.

The true tragedy of the conjunction might be just that - the universe could have been made a much better place if ignorant, well intentioned adventurers hadn't stopped it all and relocked the prison doors.

[Lucius]

Jack raised a good point: What will happen with all those innocents natives to the Land of Mists? Will they survive? Will they die? Will they be dropped in a strange world? The Land of Mists ir their homeland, the great majority of them don´t even know that there is another worlds out there, and even if they want a happier life, I think they want this kind of life in his homeland.

Another topic is not just about the destruction of RL, it´s about WHO will destroy it. In my campaign the Gentleman Caller will be the responsible, he and the Dukkar. Why? Because he is a demon, and demons love to destroy things spreading chaos. But in this case the things will go further, he will not just destroy the demiplane, he will use the Dukkar to control the mists. Now imagine a genius being of chaos and evil with the power to control the mists, to reach any plane with it, and being able to bring the rules of the demiplane to all these places...the entire multiverse will be ruled by chaos and fear.

[The Giamarga]

Jack raised a good point: What will happen with all those innocents natives to the Land of Mists? Will they survive? Will they die? Will they be dropped in a strange world? The Land of Mists ir their homeland, the great majority of them don´t even know that there is another worlds out there, and even if they want a happier life, I think they want this kind of life in his homeland.

You could also ask: Are all of them even real? Or are they made by the Mists similar to the false history.

[The Giamarga]

Put him back as Azalin the Lich, with no nation and no evil curse, and he's just another Iggwilv or Acerack or Zuggtmoy or whomever--sure, a big nasty guy, but one of a herd of big nasty guys.

That has got to be the understatement of the week. Iggwilv is likely the mighties evil witch ever, with a power level on par with Graz'zt himself, Zuggtmoy is a major Demon Lord/Lady and Acererak the greatest demilich. Azaling is not even close to their might.

But your point still stands.

I think that the answer to your question is tied to the nature of the Demiplane and the Dark Powers themselves. IMO there are two theories:

1. The DPs are prisoners themselves. Releasing them is bad for the multiverse. I think making them so powerful that the gods fear them is over the top and too similar to Tharizdun. His prison plane is explicitly differentiated from the Demiplane of Dread. But you don't need to make them that powerful for this theory to work.

2. The DPs are "mad scientists" experimenting on evil. They distill/refine/study the evilness of the Darklords, the nature of heroism and the human soul and the Dread of the whole demiplane. They are the creators of Ravenloft's houserules and planar traits and false history. During a Conjunction those rules apply to the Prime worlds too which is a bad thing. Now if the Demiplane is destroyed either the rules/traits expand to all the multiverse (which i find very hard to believe) or they don't. In the latter case destroying Ravenloft is not so bad for the multiverse, it only sets free the subjects, darklords and populace. Or it destroys them.

Note that the 2 theories are not exclusive.

My theory is that the DPs are transcended demiliches who created the demiplane but are also bound to it. (Perhaps the plane itself is their phylactery or perhaps the 13 Halan skulls are.) They have quasi-divine power over the Demiplane altering it's traits and geography to suit their needs. They are both experimenters and prisoners tied to their little playground snatching up evildoers and heroes alike, tempting all of them and creating whole populaces out of seemingly nowhere. Perhaps the following suggestion by Kain Darkwind on dicefreaks is true:

Basically, I suggested that the average people of Ravenloft have sort of a limited soul pool, and are eternally reincarnated and live out their lives. The cycle is probably just large enough to encompass three generations, so that no one (or barely) remembers that John the Blacksmith at 20 years old was also John the former blacksmith that died 21 years ago.

Essentially, the common folk of Ravenloft are trapped in a never ending cycle of death, rebirth and miserable life.

Maybe the DPs were imprisoned there or maybe they imprisoned themselves. Maybe Ezra had something to do with that and Hala. Maybe what's left of the deity Bane is tied to it too, as he was interestingly worshipped in Ravenloft after he had been destroyed. The DPs being demiliches would also explain why Azalin was trying to become one himself to escape.


Perhaps it is not even that bad for the multiverse if Ravenloft is destroyed. Certainly not if its only about the residents that are freed alone. There are more powerful evil forces around in the multiverse. (the DPs don't pick their victims by power-level) OTOH perhaps it is about the few innocent souls of the populace snuffed out.

[HuManBing]

To clarify my earlier point:

All darklords who escaped into other worlds would take their darklord powers with them. Likely they would lose any curse that attended them.

The Dark Powers would be able to extend their "god blocking" effect across all the Prime Material planes. Ravenloft's background rules become the default. All spells are perverted to be evil. All familiars turn out to be dread familiars with an evil alignment shift.

Don't get hung up on levels as the only judge of something's power. Azalin, despite his L18 status, has amazingly potent powers. His control undead is without limit, which already puts him way above other liches like Szass Tam, and he has a modify memory power that allows no save or SR. Even if you alter these somewhat (like in Roots of Evil, post-GC, his ability to raise undead was limited to a 2 mile radius, and to 8HD maximum - but with no limit on the distance or total 8HD controlled) he's still way more powerful than his 18 levels would suggest.

And in my campaign I ruled that Azalin immediately gains a number of levels once the GC happened, as the relaxation of his curse meant all the research and testing he'd done in past suddenly get converted into XP retroactively. Arbitrarily, I put him at L18 Wiz plus 2 levels in Archmage, which makes him nudge up against epic levels. A frightening thought!

Bottom line: Ravenloft isn't a powergaming game setting. You don't get level 24 Wiz/10 Clr/3 Rog/1 Ftr Favored of Mystra characters walking the land blasting stuff and smoking pipes. The reason why it's bad stems much more from the atmosphere of the place and a creative DM's ability to generate fear, horror, and loathing from it. Even so, Ravenloft has a couple of heavy hitters whom you probably could make into epic level threats, and one of them - Gwydion - is already CR 40.

These factors alone is enough, in my opinion, to make other settings seriously inconvenienced if Ravenloft were to open up and infect them all.

[The Giamarga]

To clarify my earlier point:

All darklords who escaped into other worlds would take their darklord powers with them. Likely they would lose any curse that attended them.

The Dark Powers would be able to extend their "god blocking" effect across all the Prime Material planes. Ravenloft's background rules become the default. All spells are perverted to be evil. All familiars turn out to be dread familiars with an evil alignment shift.

I don't buy it from a planar perspective. The DPs would have to be overpower level to thus influence the whole Prime Material plane. This is not how planar mechanics work. Even Asmodeus himself or Greater Gods cannot exert such an influence over the Prime Material Plane. (Note that there exists only one Prime Material Plane, it encompasses all the different prime worlds and crystal spheres) I can see the DPs having this sort of power over their demesne, the demiplane itself and in case of a conjunction imposing those traits onto the part of the prime world affected, but all prime worlds? No.

Don't get hung up on levels as the only judge of something's power. Azalin, despite his L18 status, has amazingly potent powers. His control undead is without limit, which already puts him way above other liches like Szass Tam, and he has a modify memory power that allows no save or SR. Even if you alter these somewhat (like in Roots of Evil, post-GC, his ability to raise undead was limited to a 2 mile radius, and to 8HD maximum - but with no limit on the distance or total 8HD controlled) he's still way more powerful than his 18 levels would suggest.

I don't. He's a powerful force for evil, no doubt. But on a planar perspective? He doesn't compare to say a Demon Lord or an evil demigod. Yes not even to some BBEGs from the prime.

And in my campaign I ruled that Azalin immediately gains a number of levels once the GC happened, as the relaxation of his curse meant all the research and testing he'd done in past suddenly get converted into XP retroactively. Arbitrarily, I put him at L18 Wiz plus 2 levels in Archmage, which makes him nudge up against epic levels. A frightening thought!

A good ruling imho. You might even put him in epic levels but not having had enough time to develop epic spells or learn epic feats.

Bottom line: Ravenloft isn't a powergaming game setting. You don't get level 24 Wiz/10 Clr/3 Rog/1 Ftr Favored of Mystra characters walking the land blasting stuff and smoking pipes. The reason why it's bad stems much more from the atmosphere of the place and a creative DM's ability to generate fear, horror, and loathing from it. Even so, Ravenloft has a couple of heavy hitters whom you probably could make into epic level threats, and one of them - Gwydion - is already CR 40.

I know. And I love Ravenloft all the more for it. And about the epic stuff: I was involved in The Reckonings Epic campaign. I'm even in favour of upping the levels on some of RL's baddies.

These factors alone is enough, in my opinion, to make other settings seriously inconvenienced if Ravenloft were to open up and infect them all.

But mostly because of the imposing of the houserules (demiplane traits and darklord powers), which as I outlined above, I think is improbable to say the least. Not because of the darklords themselves, and least not from a planar perspective. Sure loosing almost epic Strahd on the prime Barovia is probably disastrous for that country, perhaps even the whole continent. But what are Hazlik or Lukas to Toril? Even Azalin on Greyhawk would only be another albeit mighty evil ruler as Sylaire explained quite aptly.

[HuManBing]

I don't buy it from a planar perspective. The DPs would have to be overpower level to thus influence the whole Prime Material plane.

I started a thread awhile back asking whether DPs were weaker than gods or stronger. There is no canon that explicitly states the power level. The end result is that it's up to you how you want to phrase it and there is no objective answer for this. It is somewhat annoying to me when people present "answers" as though there was.

This is not how planar mechanics work.

Insofar as we're debating the quantum physics of a completely fictitious role playing game, that's a pretty bold statement you've just made. Let's clarify that this is not how planar mechanics work for you. The DnD circular orrery pantheon of planes is confused and garbled at best, and has undergone several revisions through the editions but without any real unifying logic behind it. (Where exactly is Ravenloft, for example? Prime? Border Ethereal? Demiplane of Mist?)

You should not lose sight of the fact that DnD is meant to be tweaked and customized by individual players, and that statements purporting interpretation to be outright fact doesn't lend much to the discussion.

Even Asmodeus himself or Greater Gods cannot exert such an influence over the Prime Material Plane.

Asmodeus is statted as being quite a bit weaker than gods. If you have the Book of Vile Darkness, he actually has a CR, which gods do not. Comparing the two of them as being even in the same frame of reference as far as power goes is, in my opinion, questionable. If it works for you, fine, but it's not like that in my campaign. Also, it's not like that in the RAW (rules as written). I don't have the Book of Vile Darkness in front of me but I vaguely remember he was CR 30-something.

I can see the DPs having this sort of power over their demesne, the demiplane itself and in case of a conjunction imposing those traits onto the part of the prime world affected, but all prime worlds? No.

Your opinion. That's perfectly all right but you should acknowledge it as such instead of boldly stating that I'm wrong and you're right.

But on a planar perspective? He doesn't compare to say a Demon Lord or an evil demigod. Yes not even to some BBEGs from the prime.

Azalin is CR 23 (GazII). Most of the Demon Lords are roughly equivalent. I think Asmodeus is higher as statted in the Book of Vile Darkness, but several Demon or Devil Lords are quantifiably lower than CR 24. Your other point is somewhat more valid, in that NPCs like Elminster are indeed overpowered (I think he was CR near 40 in the Epic Level Handbook?). However, I hold that this merely goes to show that WotC got the CRs completely screwed up, when a human wizard is nearly twice as powerful as Demon Lords. Writers sell books, readers start looking for their fan characters, and before you know it, power inflation has gotten out of control (with Elminster turning into an uber powered Gandalf-alike while going around sleeping with goddess after goddess... give me a break, FR). Yes, I think Ravenloft characters are weaker than certain out of control characters from other locales, but that's more a reflection on the restraint and good judgment of Ravenloft's writers, and the lack of the same in FR and GH writers.

I'm trying not to be too confrontational in this post because it seems we share opinions in many issues. But there are a few general assumptions and intolerances in this forum (and to a greater extent in WotC's forums) that I'd like to point out and see if there's something we can do something about.

[The Giamarga]

Well one case in point would be the Masque of the Red Death setting. I'm hazy on the details, but doesn't the background state that the red death is one of the dark powers who escaped from Ravenloft and applied the "Masque effect" onto the world Uerth (one of the many parallel world of Earth and Oerth). But still this is only one prime world.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

Gothic Earth is a world either devoid of deities, or devoid of interventionist deities. It's also never been assigned a fixed locale in the Great Wheel cosmology, so it's uncertain what metaphysics govern its workings. It's not a very good basis for comparison.