Good outsiders and corruption points

[Jakob]

Hi,
I made a quick search and nothing turned out on the forums, so I'm going to ask something...

Picture I'm a good outsider, aware of the twisting occurring around me. I understand I have to attune me to the land. I don't like it, but I don't want to cause transformations in mortals... Ok, I make power rituals and gain corruption points, reducing my wrinkle.

The question is: are power rituals an inherently evil action? Is gaining corruption points having effects on my being "good"? Is it a viable option to contrast the twisting?

By the way, how does a power ritual look like (mind you, I don't have VRGtF, so do not direct me to that source, please... )?

[Rotipher of the FoS]

Power rituals probably should be inherently evil. Think about it: bonding yourself to a land as saturated with evil energies as Ravenloft can't be a good thing. Furthermore, I'm not sure a Good outsider should be capable of going through with such a ritual, as it might well cause them physical harm to absorb so much evil energy.

With regards to the Twisting, I've never liked the notion that it needs to be true of all Good-type outsiders in Ravenloft, and I rather doubt that Carnival ever intended it to. The Twisting happens around Isolde, IMHO, because she's a Chaotic outsider as well as a Good one, so her presence causes changes as a way to mete out poetic justice. If a Lawful archon came to Ravenloft, its reality wrinkle ought to do something totally different from Isolde's, if you ask me.

[Jakob]

Power rituals probably should be inherently evil. Think about it: bonding yourself to a land as saturated with evil energies as Ravenloft can't be a good thing. Furthermore, I'm not sure a Good outsider should be capable of going through with such a ritual, as it might well cause them physical harm to absorb so much evil energy.

I remember a passing note on RLDMG quoting good outsiders making Power Rituals...
My question: is a PR an horrible event in which the fiend sacrifices a voilated victim to the Powers That Be, or one in which the fiend meditates in a specific place in the domain?
I agree with the "Land so evil" point, though. But I tend to picture a good outsider (who's not gone mad ) accepting that the PR is the lesser evil... Of course, if it's not The Gruesome Sacrifice.

With regards to the Twisting, I've never liked the notion that it needs to be true of all Good-type outsiders in Ravenloft, and I rather doubt that Carnival ever intended it to. The Twisting happens around Isolde, IMHO, because she's a Chaotic outsider as well as a Good one, so her presence causes changes as a way to mete out poetic justice. If a Lawful archon came to Ravenloft, its reality wrinkle ought to do something totally different from Isolde's, if you ask me.

Uhh... I remember something in a QtR issue, about a hound archon with a sort of twisting effect... Then again, something in RLDMG.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

The exact details of power rituals were never defined, actually. When VRGtF was written, outsiders weren't really thought of as characters, so the question of precisely what they had to do never really came up: it was just an excuse for DMs to give fiends non-standard abilities, at a time when you couldn't enhance monsters with class levels or templates.

If you'd prefer to avoid the generic "gruesome sacrifices" route (which is kind of trite), you might consider making the Power Ritual something that reflects the particular domain it's performed in. Some might indeed be obviously warped and evil -- in Borca, the outsider might have to eat an ermordenung's heart and survive the toxins it contains -- but others may seem benign on the surface, provided you don't look to the long-term consequences. For instance, a Power Ritual in Darkon might require the outsider to erase and re-write someone's memories, which the Good outsider could do for someone haunted by terrible past experiences; only later, when the person starts to go nuts trying to account for the presence of scars on his or her body, feelings of deja vu, etc, would it turn out not to have been such a harmless thing after all.

[Jason of the Fraternity]

The question is: are power rituals an inherently evil action? Is gaining corruption points having effects on my being "good"? Is it a viable option to contrast the twisting?

I would tend to agree with Rotipher in that power rituals should probably be considered as inherently evil. Binding yourself to a land that tends to reward/punish creatures for their sins would not likely be considered an act of goodness. Considering that celestials are supposed to be the embodiments of goodness, I am doubtful that many (if any) of them would be likely to willingly bind themselves to evil in the attempt to reduce their reality wrinkle.

[Admittedly, the above statement is based on the standard belief that the Demiplane of Dread is a world that is inherently evil. If you (or your Dungeon Master) has a different approach to how the demiplane works, then I would say that you could alter the details to fit that concept.]

I agree with the "Land so evil" point, though. But I tend to picture a good outsider (who's not gone mad ) accepting that the PR is the lesser evil... Of course, if it's not The Gruesome Sacrifice.

There is some merit to this idea, and I think that it could make for an especially interesting gothic story. An angel (celestial) is trapped in Ravenloft and his/her presence is causing difficulties due to the conflicting energies (i.e., Twisting). This good outsider learns that binding himself/herself to this artificial world would lessen the tragedies that his/her presence cause the mortals, but the binding of himself/herself to this evil and artifical world is a blasphemy.

Seeing that these bindings are the lesser of two evils, the celestial begins performing power rituals. However, each power ritual causes the celestial to fall farther and farther from grace. Eventually, the celetial becomes corrupted and is no longer the same being he/she once was (which could open up either a new enemy/monster or a plot to regain the lost righteousness).

By the way, how does a power ritual look like (mind you, I don't have VRGtF, so do not direct me to that source, please... )?

I don't recall any of the products specifying that the rituals being gruesome, per se. Again, I would agree with Rotipher that the ritual should be based upon the domain within which it is taking place. The powers gained are domain specific, and I would tend to have each ritual reflect this as well.

[Jason of the Fraternity]

With regards to the Twisting, I've never liked the notion that it needs to be true of all Good-type outsiders in Ravenloft, and I rather doubt that Carnival ever intended it to. If a Lawful archon came to Ravenloft, its reality wrinkle ought to do something totally different from Isolde's, if you ask me.

Well, the idea of the Twisting is that you have conflicting energies between the good outsider and the evil land. Instead of having a concentrated evil reality wrinkle overlapping the already evil land, we now have a concentrated good reality wrinkle on top of an evil land (as oil and water sort of effect). With these energies fighting for dominance, we have reality slowly being distorted.

However, I agree that each celestial/good outsider shouldn't necessarily be experiencing the same effects that Isolde has with the Carnival. I would tailor the Twisting to reflect the celestials alignment as well as type and personality (see example below).

Uhh... I remember something in a QtR issue, about a hound archon with a sort of twisting effect... Then again, something in RLDMG.

Yep, this was one of my articles. I wanted to keep the Twisting effects without making another Carnival-like organization. Therefore, I tailored the effects to more appropriate match the character. Being a lawful good archon, I created the effects to slowly transform any one who remained near the hound archon to slowly change into similar forms (i.e., theoretically creating additional hound archons). However, the land would make mockeries of these since these humans were not true archon (hence, the sidebar discussing the humans becoming dog-like mongrelmen).

The prestige class (same QtR issue) was a way of accepting these energies and directing them in a usable way. There were still risks, but men and woman could go through rigorous training and meditation to adapt to this new power (which fit well with the lawful good aura of an archon).

[Jakob]

Yep, this was one of my articles. I wanted to keep the Twisting effects without making another Carnival-like organization. Therefore, I tailored the effects to more appropriate match the character. Being a lawful good archon, I created the effects to slowly transform any one who remained near the hound archon to slowly change into similar forms (i.e., theoretically creating additional hound archons). However, the land would make mockeries of these since these humans were not true archon (hence, the sidebar discussing the humans becoming dog-like mongrelmen).

The prestige class (same QtR issue) was a way of accepting these energies and directing them in a usable way. There were still risks, but men and woman could go through rigorous training and meditation to adapt to this new power (which fit well with the lawful good aura of an archon).

Yes, and an article I remember fondly. I really loved it.

That said, I enjoy the "corruption step-by-step" idea. We'll see.

I needed it for a QtR article. Don't tell anyone.

Thanks to both of you!

[Jason of the Fraternity]

No problem, Jakob. You'll have to keep us posted as to how you end up using these details. I'd be interested in hearing how another DM/player goes about doing things...

Jason

[Stygian Inquirer]

Children of the Night: Demons from the old Kargatane site had some more details on Power Rituals and what they could look like (especially in the adventures i.e. Marasmos). I believe it can still be found out there or possibly here *looks around all shifty-eyed*.

I always thought that when a good-aligned outsider might want to do a Power Ritual for a couple of reasons: they could be selfish and power hungry to defeat evil (fanatical even, sound like anyone we know?) à la Powers Checks for mortals, or they could be the too nice kind of good-aligned outsider that sees that their reality wrinkle is harming innocent people and wants to take one for the team and do one to reduce the wrinkle and thus the suffering.

[Jakob]

I always thought that when a good-aligned outsider might want to do a Power Ritual for a couple of reasons: they could be selfish and power hungry to defeat evil (fanatical even, sound like anyone we know?) à la Powers Checks for mortals, or they could be the too nice kind of good-aligned outsider that sees that their reality wrinkle is harming innocent people and wants to take one for the team and do one to reduce the wrinkle and thus the suffering.

Yeah, for paragons of good I was thinking exactly about the second one.