Wotc and Ravenloft

[Mangrum]

The main thing I fear though is basically the same thing that has bothered me about WOtC since they took over. And that is it seems as though they are trying to capture some bizarre sub-demographic of role players rather then catering to the loyal players who have been with the setting for years.

I hate always having to be the one to point this out, but "the loyal players who have been with [Ravenloft] for years" is the "bizarre sub-demographic of role players."

[Archedius]

yes but to us we're normal

[Catman Jim]

I count only 300 forum members here that have posted 10 times or more, we are a very small demographic.

[WolfKook]

I hate always having to be the one to point this out, but "the loyal players who have been with [Ravenloft] for years" is the "bizarre sub-demographic of role players."

Yeap. They could change the entire setting into a castelvania-like vampire hunting video-gamish setting, and most people wouldn't event notice.

yes but to us we're normal

[LordGodefroi]

I'm very pessimistic. Even if they got someone to write for Ravenloft who could do all those things cure mentioned, they could still screw the material over by making a small change here another there... Take Expedition to the City of Greyhawk for example. Erik Mona wrote it and tried to do Greyhawk justice. And in the end WotC edited Castle Greyhawk right out of Oerth. Meh.

Hmph. Kinda sounds like they may have had some issues regarding Gary Gygax's mammoth Castle Greyhawk supplement (published under the title Castle Zagyg).

[BigBadQDaddy]

I count only 300 forum members here that have posted 10 times or more, we are a very small demographic.

Sorry for the non-specifics, what I am referring to by lumping this group of what I like to call 3.X players into what I stated as a sub-demographic is this: Ever since WOtC took over I have seen more and more division amongst D&D gamers, at least where I live, where the players have divided into two demographics. a) the old schoolers like myself who have been playing forever and have certain expectations from the D&D brand and group b) the players who only started playing when 3.0 was released due to the large push of the WOtC D&D ad campaign surge. I don't know how it is in your neck of the woods but in the gaming circles where I am at, the two rarely if ever co-mingle. As some of you who have been on this board for a while may remember my very opinionated remarks regarding 3.5 when I first joined the boards about two years ago, I had a very difficult time making the switch. Fortunately WW was in charge of Ravenloft to help ease the transition with there care for the setting. But anyway, what I am trying to say from my point of view there is a very sharp and clear division in the demographic in the gaming circles where I am from.
Now, I am not going to start some ridiculous argument by stating one is right over the other or one is better. All I am saying is that I feel the original core demographic of D&D players who had been playing for years where kind of left in the cold. I have been bothered by this since the release of 3.0 and onward. It just seems such a waste to me for WOtC to have washed there hands of a loyal fan base who had already proven to be a market for D&D products and instead opted to recreate the game in a whole new image and target a completely different and unproven target audience. Granted there is some smarts in that move in that by targeting a fresh young audience you are creating a new longevity for the brand. But that brings me back to my original argument, why did they need to buy an already existing brand, completely change the content and later completely abandon most of the licensed material (campaign settings and the like) to do nothing other then create a completely new campaign world (Ebberon), change the target audience to a younger demographic, and pretty much create an entirely new game? IMO they could have just licensed there own game under a completely different name, went after there preferred target audience and still have been successful without ruining a good brand.
The more I think about it the more it looks to me like WOtC decided to use the D&D brand as a launch to start off there own vision. By releasing books under the D&D brand, the loyal fans where all too happy to have new material...for a while. Then it stopped. At that point in time WOtC had accumulated enough of a profit to no longer need this tired old demographic of players. Hence the disappearance of the old campaign standbys like Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Planescape, Dragonlance, Ravenloft, etc. What does that mean? IMO it means that what WOtC had from day one had no real intention of carrying on the D&D brand by buying it. There intention from day one was to destroy a potential competitor by buying up the number 1 brand and exploiting it and its fans just to bring us Magic: The Gathering the RPG. And we all bought it.

[Catman Jim]

I feel most of the same things you do, BB, and extend it also to the demise of printed Dragon & Dungeon magazines.

[Mangrum]

Thing is, your observations don't accurately model the bigger picture. In short, you're chasing phantoms. The fanbase grew, considerably, when 3E was launched. It's true that WotC has made missteps, but if we want to look at divisions within the D&D gaming community, let's not forget that in 2E, setting fans were so balkanized that Ravenloft fans would barely acknowledge that Planescape fans were also playing D&D, and vice versa, and all the way 'round -- and each of those self-enforced gaming ghettos had sawed the overall market into such thin slices that most individual settings were no longer worth publishing, financially.

[NeoTiamat]

I've actually heard the same case by another publishing insider, which is why I'm remarkably surprised that we're getting as many seeming hints as we are (either that or this forum is suffering from a bad case of wishful thinking).

[Wiccy of the Fraternity]

Why do I have this dread feeling we would get monthly hard-cover sourcebooks like:

The Races of Ravenloft
The Magic of Ravenloft
The Power of Ravenloft
Faiths & Pantheons of Ravenloft
Savage Species of Ravenloft
Epic Ravenloft Handbook
Champions & Heroes of Ravenloft
Villains & Lords of Ravenloft
Dragons of Ravenloft
Mysteries of the Sea of Sorrows
Grand History of the Core
Ravenloft Underdark
Ravenloft Arms & Equipment Guide
Ravenloft Survival Guide
Ravenloft Magic Item Compendium
Ravenloft Spell Compendium
Ravenloft Weapons of Legacy
Complete Darklord
Ravenloft Miniatures Handbook
Secrets of the Clusters
and Three-Undead Ante cards?

While some of those (well, a few really) might be interesting, you did hit the nail on the head. There are a few missing though...

Ravenloft Psionics Handbook
Monsters of Ravenloft
Monsters of Ravenloft 2
Monsters of Ravenloft 3
Monsters of Ravenloft 4
Monsters of Ravenloft 5
Monsters of Ravenloft 6
etc...

By all means they should do Ravenloft again, but only with writers that really know what they're on about and know what the setting really needs.

[steveflam]

Thing is, your observations don't accurately model the bigger picture. In short, you're chasing phantoms. The fanbase grew, considerably, when 3E was launched. It's true that WotC has made missteps, but if we want to look at divisions within the D&D gaming community, let's not forget that in 2E, setting fans were so balkanized that Ravenloft fans would barely acknowledge that Planescape fans were also playing D&D, and vice versa, and all the way 'round -- and each of those self-enforced gaming ghettos had sawed the overall market into such thin slices that most individual settings were no longer worth publishing, financially.

That could be true, but what about us guys/gals who just love the game in general? I can play any setting even though RL is my favorite, Mr.Mangrum

[Mangrum]

And now the next question: Of that long list of books, how many would you guys buy?

Especially since:

The Races of Ravenloft = Section of R3E
The Magic of Ravenloft = Section of R3E, expanded in VRA
Faiths & Pantheons of Ravenloft = Section of R3E
Champions & Heroes of Ravenloft = Heroes of Light
Villains & Lords of Ravenloft = Champions of Darkness
Mysteries of the Sea of Sorrows = RL Gazetteer VII (as planned)
Grand History of the Core = RL Gaz series
Ravenloft Arms & Equipment Guide = VRA
Ravenloft Magic Item Compendium = Section in RLDMG
Ravenloft Spell Compendium = Scattered across numerous RL books
Complete Darklord = Sections in RLDMG
Secrets of the Clusters = RL Gazetteers VIII through XI (as planned)
Three-Dragon Ante = Tarokka
Ravenloft Psionics Handbook = Section in RLDMG
Monsters of Ravenloft = Denizens of Darkness/Denizens of Dread

[steveflam]

Honestly I would not buy any. I Like the 2nd edition fine. The 3rd edition is passable. I think anyone who loves RL and has enough 2nd and 3rd ed material doesnt need any new books.

WotC basically is saying to us "You have 9 months to finish your campaigns." I don't think that is right at all. Many people have put time and effort in their campaigns whether they be players or D.M's. This is just my opinion of course!

[Isabella]

WotC basically is saying to us "You have 9 months to finish your campaigns." I don't think that is right at all.

But... where do you get this idea? WotC isn't going to come to your house and burn everyone's 3.5 books when 4e is released.

[steveflam]

I dont have the youtube link but basically some WotC guy said in an interview "You have 9 months to close out your games" .... In my mind I am like oh yeah? Says you?