Wotc and Ravenloft

[Archedius]

I'm sorry- I just don't feel that wizards could do RL justice. Just my opinion but what they did to Strahd and Eva's just...unforgiveable.

[BigBadQDaddy]

I voted "It Depends On Who They Get To Write It" Because I think it could be possible for WOtC to do a good job with the setting if they actually sat down and looked at the material.
The main thing I fear though is basically the same thing that has bothered me about WOtC since they took over. And that is it seems as though they are trying to capture some bizarre sub-demographic of role players rather then catering to the loyal players who have been with the setting for years. I remember in 2000 when the switcharoo was made, I had fun with the game, but it wasn't D&D.
I think I would definitely have a lot more respect for WOtC if they had just started their own RPG brand rather than acquiring one with expectations and standards applied to it. You know, I probably would have played a Magic:The Gathering RPG and appreciated it for what it was. But instead, we get slapped in the face because WOtC wasn't willing to take a chance and create their own RPG brand. (sigh) but there I go again on another rant.
Back to the subject matter. If WOtC actually looked at the material THEY PAID TO USE, then yes, they could do a good, if not great job as I am sure they employ many great writers. But if our history teaches us anything, WOtC has no interest in actually acknowledging the previous cannon materials existence, and will therefor always fall flat on there face out of pride and arrogance.
WOtC: Impotent Dark Lord of the Island Domain of Magic:The Gathering.

[cure]

Let us imagine, just for the sake of argument, that they hired some one or two or even three people who actually have a genuine fondness for and a good grasp upon the domain. Further let us add that they are given orders to make money, have fun, and do no harm. Finally let us add that they are broadly in agreement with each other and in no sense are at each others's throats. So what do they do?

Redoing all the stats to 4th edition is little better than accountants' work.

Picking up the story of S and the Gazetteers where they left off? There are probably three people on the planet competent to do that. Far worse that would involve legitimating 3rd edition WW which Wizard's would step in to stop. (All those evil 3th edition stats.)

Pushing forward the storyline of Ravenloft? Again there are probably three people on the planet competent to do that on their own. In consultation with the rest of the community that number would certainly be higher. But would such consultation be allowed in a for profit, copyrighted product?

Publishing adventures? This would be the most promising and doable to my eye, but have we not been told that there is no money in Ravenloft adventures?

Developing new material? If islands of terror this might not do too much damage and potentially could be good. If involving the core this could be very bad indeed and probably would have little scope for being very good, since it would inevitably involve moving the storyline forward demanding a probably prohibitively high level of competence and fidelity. And we have already seen what Wizards considers to be fidel in its treatment of Strahd aka the Dread Elf Pirate of Lake Baratok to say nothing of Madame Eva aka the Hag in Chief.

So in short, I would not be optimistic . . . .

[LordGodefroi]

Add me to the list of "Depends on who writes it" people. The team that did Heroes of Horror did a great job . It's one of my favorite non-RL D&D3e books (along with FFG's Darkness & Dread).

--

Edit: Moved comment regarding 4e rules development to the Yep, 4th Edition is coming out.... thread.

[cure]

It seems they're upping the power levels of D&D again and trying to turn it into Castlevania or Final Fantasy. . . i.e. a paper-and-pencil video game.

The idea of a Paladin with anything like a "chi strike" or producing cold, fire, or energy effects due to his "stances and maneuvers" just turn my stomach.

Inflation is another very serious issue. I think it hurt Ravenloft in going from 2nd edition to 3rd. I mean Ivana should be knife thrust away from death. Instead she has scores of hit points just so that she has the mechanically required (by 3rd edition) social and venemous skills of her position. We do not need more of that.

[Guardian of Twilight]

Do you honestly think that would happen with Wotc? TSR was wonderful for listening to it's customers!

P.S - can ya tell I really like Wotc?

I'm just hoping that the people at Wizards that are into making new rules and products remember the fact that they should be gamers first, businessmen second. They should remember that they are making a game, and that's why it's called game supplements, not business supplements.

[The Giamarga]

I'm very pessimistic. Even if they got someone to write for Ravenloft who could do all those things cure mentioned, they could still screw the material over by making a small change here another there... Take Expedition to the City of Greyhawk for example. Erik Mona wrote it and tried to do Greyhawk justice. And in the end WotC edited Castle Greyhawk right out of Oerth. Meh.

[The Giamarga]

It seems they're upping the power levels of D&D again and trying to turn it into Castlevania or Final Fantasy. . . i.e. a paper-and-pencil video game.

The idea of a Paladin with anything like a "chi strike" or producing cold, fire, or energy effects due to his "stances and maneuvers" just turn my stomach.

Inflation is another very serious issue. I think it hurt Ravenloft in going from 2nd edition to 3rd. I mean Ivana should be knife thrust away from death. Instead she has scores of hit points just so that she has the mechanically required (by 3rd edition) social and venemous skills of her position. We do not need more of that.

This i disagree with. I'm very glad they did away with 0-level humans. NPC classes are great and Ravenoft is greater for actually using them. Yes it is a slight power inflation but justified. I mean if you really picture your 1st level PCs as great heroes, or even adults you're just wrong. 1st level PCs and NPCs are adolescents or children.

Just look at the great NPC class threads on ENWorld or SKR Theory on Peasants. Yes I'm a great fan of that.

[cure]

Ivana as a beautiful, intelligent woman gifted by the Dark Powers with a lethal touch was perfectly viable. 3rd edition mechanics changed her from a woman in desperate need of guards about her, like most royalty throughout history, into a tank.

But this really cashes out in Kartakass. It wasn't too small, or at least didn't feel too small, until 3rd edition mechanics got ahold of Lukas and his every friend and ally. Whereafter there is no way that that can all fit in the place at official size.

Mechanics then do matter and sacrifices are made to themt. But I am not in the mood to let mechanics drive further non-thematic changes to the lands of the mists.

Recall why we ended up with Madame Eva as a hag. The Vistani had to be fitted to game mechanics. And the Mists too (or done away with when they do not) and ultimately the Dark Powers.

[Jakob]

I voted "depends on who's writing". With the resources and visual quality control of WotC and the right people writing for them (I include here the surviving Kargatane and Ari Marmell, though I found HoH simply terrible), we could (underlined: COULD) have something like the Gaz IV without the river pic in the Invidia chapter.

Why do I have this dread feeling we would get monthly hard-cover sourcebooks like:

The Races of Ravenloft
The Magic of Ravenloft
The Power of Ravenloft
Faiths & Pantheons of Ravenloft
Savage Species of Ravenloft
Epic Ravenloft Handbook
Champions & Heroes of Ravenloft
Villains & Lords of Ravenloft
Dragons of Ravenloft
Mysteries of the Sea of Sorrows
Grand History of the Core
Ravenloft Underdark
Ravenloft Arms & Equipment Guide
Ravenloft Survival Guide
Ravenloft Magic Item Compendium
Ravenloft Spell Compendium
Ravenloft Weapons of Legacy
Complete Darklord
Ravenloft Miniatures Handbook
Secrets of the Clusters
and Three-Undead Ante cards?

Will never happen. Ravenloft isn't Eberron or FR, it is not a popular (I mean popular as in "OhgodmyPCisa34levelarchmageIkilledelminsterlastweekthisweekwekillthegods" sense ) setting, nor it will ever be, if the premises (roleplay heavy, not "dungeon-centered", not "power-centered" and so on) does not change.

Ivana as a beautiful, intelligent woman gifted by the Dark Powers with a lethal touch was perfectly viable. 3rd edition mechanics changed her from a woman in desperate need of guards about her, like most royalty throughout history, into a tank.

I have a different view on "tanks", but... Just think that in 3.X you could create a NON-ADVENTURER NPC who was fitting the rules (as in 3.X, the assumpion was "If the DM can, then the players can too") and could be more than a cardboard figure.
Do you remember someone who was a "0-level charachter with the capabilities of a 14th level enchanter, but who can cast only these exact spells"?
Now Dominic is a 12th level aristocrat, with spell-like abilities granted by the Dark Powers... Something a PC could be, after all.

It might be that I began playing with 3E (but, being a Ravenloft and Greyhawk fan, I delved deep into the dephts of past editions... ), but I like much more having NPCs who can DO something more than exist and talk...

[Daisu]

They would want to tie in the changes of expedition to castle ravenloft, that would be BLAH. They need to hand reigns over to the writters we love and let them finish their vision for ravenloft and get to those dang islands.
Wonder how many fans lines of credit it would take to buy the liscense? All I know is whenever I talk to WotC about liscenses to old products they shut the door on me If anyone else willing to try I wish to come on board to help.

[Catman Jim]

Why do I have this dread feeling we would get monthly hard-cover sourcebooks like:
snipped

Will never happen...

Sto essendo sarcastic, Jakob.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

I mean Ivana should be knife thrust away from death. Instead she has scores of hit points just so that she has the mechanically required (by 3rd edition) social and venemous skills of her position. We do not need more of that.

Actually, giving her NPC-class levels simply provides a game-mechanic for what 99% of DMs in 2E would have used "DM fiat" to achieve anyway, namely keeping a critical NPC from getting anticlimactically slaughtered under conditions which would trash an adventure plotline. If given a choice between letting a single blow finish off Ivana -- thereby potentially causing the entire domain to disappear (pre-Conjunction), or bluntly and undramatically ending the political power-struggle that makes Borca interesting -- or having her "miraculously escape" (saved by DPs, pushed into the clear by a bodyguard, retroactively declared a simulacrum, etc), how many DMs would let a single knife-thrust spoil the whole scenario? NPC levels simply let 3E DMs make those NPCs who need to survive for storyline purposes durable enough to do so, without stepping openly outside "the rules".

And she's still a knife thrust away from death. The difference is that it now needs to be a skillful assassin who's wielding it, not some 0-level schlub who trips while carrying a steakknife. Which would be more dramatically satisfying?

[Jakob]

Actually, giving her NPC-class levels simply provides a game-mechanic for what 99% of DMs in 2E would have used "DM fiat" to achieve anyway

Exactly one of the reason I like 3.X: less open to "DM trick" like "You are all dead because this all-powerful NPC killed you" (the opening of some adventure modules, as I recall correctly ).
Ravenloft was SO FULL of "DDMT" (Dirty DM Tricks, in Italian "Sporca Gabola da Dungeon Master )...

Sto essendo sarcastic, Jakob.

The dreaded automatic and grammatically unpaired translator strikes again!

[Mangrum]

Inflation is another very serious issue. I think it hurt Ravenloft in going from 2nd edition to 3rd. I mean Ivana should be knife thrust away from death. Instead she has scores of hit points just so that she has the mechanically required (by 3rd edition) social and venemous skills of her position. We do not need more of that.

Incorrect. She became more powerful in 3E because a villain who's "a knife thrust away from death" is a villain who can't risk interacting with PCs, ever.
"Glass jaw" villains are fun to read about, but savagely limited in play.

A major, campaign-spanning villain needs to be a bit heartier than an off-the-rack kobold. Otherwise your Big Bad is likely to be dead before her turn comes up in combat. (This is particularly true in a setting where it's stated that assassins come gunning for her regularly.)

Seriously, put the 2E version of Ivana in a 3E game and the moment a PC archer or wizard gets line-of-sight to her, she's dead. The only way to prevent that is to ramp up the power levels of her bodyguards to even more ludicrous extremes. The extra HD she receives in 3E are actually there A) to reflect that she's been a highly active villain for decades -- and NPCs get XP in 3E just like PCs; and B) to provide a "cushion" so that she can afford to nestle up to PCs like she's supposed to.