If they were going to re-release a demiplanes of dread?

[NykylaiHellray]

If they were going to make it a re-release the demiplanes of dread in a campaign book, what would you want in it, and what would you want changed?


My suggestions would be new domains, plus expanding previosuly mentioned but hardly touched domains, and definatley new world maps.

[ScS of the Fraternity]

I'd say its way too soon to create another Campaign Setting book. The 3rd edition Campaign Setting is pretty much as good as it gets until 4th edition.

The only improvements I can think of is for the Darklord stats to be included. That was a serious abscence in the 3rd edition book.
Perhaps if the book tied together information from the other books, such Obliettes and other phenomena from VRG:Mists.

[nothri]

First, I'd hope they would wait for a fourth edition, which woulkd mean at least a couple years. I have some hope they will truly release the book in the next edition given the 2008 novels.

I think they need to release it as two books. A setting book and a DM's book. I think the WW staff had the right idea, but didn't follow through as they should have (releasing all the Darklords in a book that had the capacity to describe all of them).

[Paladyn]

I agree with an idea of two books. It would be great to have one handbook, you can give players and say "That an information, your character knows" and at the same time to have your own, true secret lore.

In my opinion separating stats and common lore was good idea. The bigest fault was "Secrets od the Dread Realms" (don't remember title exactly) which included only some, mostly well known, Darklords. For me it lacked Shadowborn or Crocodile .

In new edition I'd love to see all domains, clusters and islands in one place, more information about common life (although 3E book contained massive amount, compared to older editions) and maybe revised/changed rules of all checs (more d20-oriented?).

[Joël of the FoS]

The bigest fault was "Secrets od the Dread Realms" (don't remember title exactly) which included only some, mostly well known, Darklords. For me it lacked Shadowborn or Crocodile .

Remember this book was cut drastically to the short book that was released. Tha uthors planned a much bigger book.

Joël

[Jester of the FoS]

Secrets of the Dread Realms was planned as a combo of that book and Ravenloft DMG. I actually like that method of having a Player's Guide and then a DM's.

Changes I would make?
Power Checks not being a % system, that is long overdue for an overhaul. More consistent rules for Power Checks and paths of darkness.
Modifications for character classes that remember balance and offer extra benefits in addition to taking away some abilities.

[cure]

Good, heck, even just reasonable, maps . . . including roads and navigatable waterways.

A section on travel addressing matters such as: crafts plying the Musarde and its tributaries; minimum and average numbers of days on foot, on horseback, in a boat going down stream, and in a boat going upstream between places in the Core; relative danger of different routes; seasonal effects on travel and in particular where snow and ice constrain or stop it.

An expanded list of spell modifications and magical item modifications imposed by the Dark Powers.

Degree to which the peasants are aware of the dangers and Darklords of their lands.

[Paladyn]

Secrets of the Dread Realms was planned as a combo of that book and Ravenloft DMG. I actually like that method of having a Player's Guide and then a DM's.

I was not aware it was cut short, but it came in form it came and honestly saying, I was quite disappointed with it's content.

Changes I would make?
Power Checks not being a % system, that is long overdue for an overhaul. More consistent rules for Power Checks and paths of darkness.

I agree wholeheartly. I felt a little weird using percentile dies in d20 system . Afterall this system is over ten or more years old.
Although paths of darkness was nice idea, I'd like to see more of them.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

I agree with pretty much everything that was said. The emphasis should be on making it as playable a world as possible. The best way IMHO to do that is:

- Split the book into a player and DM book, but do it right this time. (DM's book should be SotDR + some of RLDMG, but with ALL known Darklords, not just the core.)
- Incorporate info from the Gaz's and other books, but without reprinting them word-for-word. (For example, I don't want the town of Blackburn's Crossing to disappear, nor to read Mordenheim's story again with no mention of what really became of Eva)
- GOOD MAPS!
- GOOD MAPS!
- GOOD MAPS!
- Balance the drawbacks added to the classes with thematically appropriate benefits.


Honestly I don't care much about the percentile nature of powers checks. I don't really see them in the same format as normal d20 rolls. It's not like you have would have a "Corruption resistance skill" or anything that would help you "succeed" as a given difficulty of powers check. I shudder to think of someone taking 10 on a powers check.

[LordGodefroi]

So far, all the suggestions are good ones: GOOD MAPS; Player info vs. DM info being separate; etc.

But, most of all, I think a continuity reboot is in order. There are so many inconsistencies and contradictions that they need to be smoothed out.

And, for me, the new continuity needs to be written in such a way that the artificial nature of the demi-plane can be ignored or not. I never liked "false histories," the Shadow Rift, or "Are the people created by the Mists in new domains real people."

I always prefered Ravenloft as an alternate Prime Material plane and a new edition should allow DMs and players to use it that way if they so choose.

[Archedius]

Dunno- I've never had that problem in the slightest. As it's written you CAN use RL that way- just adds to the madness of the place IMO.

[NeoTiamat]

I can see what you're saying about continuity reboots, but to me, one of the biggest, if not *the* biggest draw is the Gazetteers, with their considerable amount of in-depth information on every Domain of the Core. And most of the continuity issues have been smoothed out to one extent or another over the years. Malken and Tristen Hiregaard almost make sense now.

What I want?

1. An actually reasonable assessment of distance, population, demographics, all that stuff. When my college campus has a population greater then all but the biggest domains, when the entire domain of Kartakass can be ridden across in a half-hour, it just gets irritating.

From what I've seen, just about everybody either ignores the listed distances and populations and just makes them whatever is appropriate, or formally reworks/multiplies them. Making this work properly would solve so many issues, travel time, human-monster relationships, etc.

This is my pet peeve, so I'll try not to rant too much.

2. More attention paid to Cluster and Island Darklords and Domains. The Core has been nicely established, it works now. But we know remarkably little about outlying Darklords. Unless you have old 2nd Ed. stuff, a lot of these Darklords are closed books to you. King Crocodile, Diamabel?

3. A little more knowledge about the mechanics of the artificial world. Don't need to explain the Dark Powers, but an explanation of how False History works, and just who are these people in new domains would be nice. I suspect that anyone who has ever attempted to create an Ancient Dead or Lich of significant age has run into the "So where did this thing *actually* come from?" issue.

4. While we're at it, perhaps move the continuity forward a few years, and maybe take the chance to edit a few of the least-effective situations? Perhaps Hiregaard finally kicks the bucket, etc.

[WolfKook]

I also would like to see two books. A player's book, with all the mechanics and the player-friendly information, and the DM book, with all the secrets of the realms of dread. As I see them:

The Player book would contain (mostly false) history and domain information from the point of view of a RL native, as well as hints as to how to create a character from a certain domain. All the base character creation mechanics would be there, with the classes modified to make them more "RL efficient", as Jester and Gonzoron said, and it would also include the conversions of the spells (Though I would prefer a whole new spell system, but that's too much to ask). I would also love to see some new (WELL DONE) domains, and the "canonization" of several fan-made domains. It would include a big map of the Core, and within its pages you would find two-page maps of the clusters, and a full-page map of each island of terror.

The DM book would include the REAL history of the world, DL stats, updating the backstories of those that weren't updated in the Gazs, as well as the rules on Fear/Horror/Madness, Curses, Powers Checks and Paths of Darkness (All d20, perhaps integrated with the ideas from WotC's Heroes of Horror, and improved to make them better -They can be improved a lot!), the conversions of magical items, and the VRG conversions for the several creatures found in the domains. A section on sinkholes of horror, oubliettes and nightmares would also be interesting.

If it's a wish list, though, I would also like to (Like several other people, as I have seen in these boards):
-Reset the history to make it longer... 400 years are too short a time for mummies! Also, the fact that the GC has already happened takes some of the beauty out of the realm. I would also like to go a few years into the future, but without stepping into the ToUD or something like that.
-Expand the core to make it larger. I prefer my players to feel alone than claustrophobic.
-Increase the population. At least as much as to give the settlements some logic.
-Replace some of the lamest DLs and domains, and refactor those which are "Good ideas, bad execution".
-Add a little to the believability of the realm: Make mistways more predominant, as to give the feeling of a "real" world, making "mist-taking" rarer and scarier. Close the Shadow Rift, but keep it's inhabitants in some kind of "Faerie plane" of sorts. Increase the view of outlanders as deranged. Elaborate on the false history, make it more consistent and independent of the individual domains. Make people unaware of their domain "apparition", etc.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

I have to say, I don't get the hatred of false history. I think it's it a necessary component of Ravenloft. Without the Darklord/Domain concept, Ravenloft loses a lot of its specialness. And if you have Darklords, whose domains are created to reflect their personality and curse , and you don't want that to be common knowledge, you can't really get away from false history. At least I can't see a way to do so.

Azalin walks into the mists and Darkon is created, whole cloth, by the Mists. Either the inhabitants know no history at all (which is far more problematic) or you have to come up with some false history. I don't see the big deal about a lich or mummy being born in false history vs. a building being built in false history. Either way, they are here now in the present, and everyone (including the lich or mummy himself) believes their history to be true, so who's to say it isn't? (Other than the DM/Dark Powers).

Unless you say that every domain was pulled or copied from elsewhere, I don't see a good way around it.

I do agree that I'd like to see more true history following the false history, if only to have more cross-domain history. The problem there is you either have to have a changing of the guard for "mortal" darklords, or stretch out their lives artificially. (And I've seen very few darklord changes proposed that really seemed to work, with respect to keeping the darklord's personality linked to the domain.)

[LordGodefroi]

The DM book would include the REAL history of the world

In my view, the DM's book shouldn't contain the real history of the world. First, players can buy the DMs book too. But, more importantly, rather than spoon-feeding every single detail, the DMs book would include suggestions on how to tweak the timeline with one's own secrets and hidden lore.

Azalin walks into the mists and Darkon is created, whole cloth, by the Mists.

And, for me, this is the one thing about Ravenloft that should be written to be used or ignored as the DM sees fit. Is RL an artificial world or not ? That should be up to the DM. In my game, most everything about RL is the same -- the Mists, the Darklords, etc. The only thing different is that RL isn't an artificial world (and anything from the published stuff indicating that RL is an artificial world is retconned.)

The two replies above bring me to this:

<RANT>

Generally speaking, I'm tired of the approach that game publishers take today. It seems that all they want to do is sell you a highly detailed base product (i.e. campaign world) and then sell you more products that fill in even more details for you. ("Getcher Eberron Feminine Hygiene Manual here !")

I prefer the Old School approach where game designers provided you with a solid framework and left the players and DM to fill in the details on their own. I mean, that's what the process of playing the game does -- players filling in details with the actions of their characters within the framework the DM provides. And if the game company provides ALL the details to the framework, what fun is it being a DM ? Where's the chance to be creative ?

Yes, I know that all DMs have the right to change anything they don't like. But, really, it's much easier to fill in an intentional design gap with one's own creative work rather than having to re-write someone else's work and hope that it fits in tone and continuity.

I applauded White Wolf when they rebooted the World of Darkness. The core books (WOD rulebook / Vampire: The Requiem) took the Old School approach. There were plenty of tools, both crunchy and fluffy, to help you build good characters; But the game world background was about tone and was general rather than specific. In short, they weren't there to tell you how your world should be. They gave you the tools and the room to build something of your own. I'm not sure if White Wolf stuck to this philosophy with all the covenant books they've published but I appreciated it when the core books were released.

In short, rather than writing product that fires up the imagination, game designers are writing minutely-detailed pre-packaged stuff that replaces imagination. ("World's Largest Dungeon" anyone ?) And I'm getting bored with game designers telling me their stories rather than giving me tools, hints, and help to create my own world and tell my own stories.

</RANT>