How do you handle poison?

[alhoon]

I have to say that poison in D&D is quite laughable in power.

Example: You want to kill the mayor. Mayor is 3rd level aristocrat. You manage to put some arsenic in his food...
So you pay 120 gold=40 months pay of labor.

The mayor has say 13 con. That means he has fortitude +2. Now the statistics:
The mayor has to succeed at a DC 13 fortitude check twice. The chances are:

- 25% he will eat the food and enjoy it. May experience some inconvenience but after he will probably think it was a mild food poisoning or too much wine.

- 25% he will lose only the first save, losing 1 con. He will feel a bit bad, but after a good nights sleep he will be fine. Still he will have a talk with the cook. He gave him a bad night after all!

- 25% he will lose only the second save.
1/8 of 25% is 3.125% So
3.125% he will experience the mild inconvenience as above
3.125% he will experience some weakness that will hold a couple of days. (-2 con, his hp cap drops by 3)
3.125% x3 =9.325% he will suffer badly (-3 to -5 con damage, his cap drops by 3 or 6 hp)
3.125%x3=9.325% he won't be able to drag his feet so to speak (-6 to -8 con)

- 25% he will lose both saves. He will lose 2-9 con.
There is a 6.25% that he will drop to 5 or even 4 con...

There is no chance that he dies.

Now consider that some would want to poison... a dwarf second level fighter...

[Sorti]

Yeah, that's a problem about how poison i handled in D&D; after all your character can survive a fireball, why should some arsenic kill him?
One of my players proposed a slightly modified method in which poison deals less damage (like 1d4 instead of 1d8) but is Fort half instead of Fort neg, so for instance if you use a poisoned weapon against a 10th level dwarf fighter he ill still take some damage, instead of ignoring even a Black Lotus Extract.

[Dion of the Fraternity]

How do you handle poison?

Carefully. Very carefully.

[Fido]

Roll the save secretly and always make it fail. Muha. I'm evil like that.
Seriously, I raise the DC's by 5 or so.

Poisons in DnD aren't made to kill, they just weaken. I think that's what most poisons would do in real life. If you eat a poisonous plant, don't expect to die on the spot. Some do kill, but I guess they're just harder to get. Try finding a cobra.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

I have to assume that's why the core-rule books made up names for new poisons, rather than listing stats for IRL toxic substances like arsenic, etc. As the poisons' prices are roughly scaled to match what a similarly-effective stat-nerfing spell might cost, they have to be fairly weak, else the prices would be even more preposterous. Slapping invented names like "blue whinnis" on such (relatively) mild toxins helps divert attention from the fact that they're really weaker -- and, worse, far less reliable -- than is physiologically realistic.

Of course, switching over to a truly accurate portrayal of real-life poisons would be even worse, in the long term, for game-balance. If it's modeled realistically, many poisons shut down their targets so rapidly and completely that there's no chance at all, no matter how healthy you are, which runs contrary to the "no automatic death" design-philosophy that removed 2E crap like instant-crush traps and "no-save" cloaks of poisonousness from the game. In Gaz IV, cyanide has a saving throw, which is good for the game. IRL, ingesting cyanide will kill you -- even in this day and age, even if you're "Mr. Fitness", even if there's a freakin' team of doctors and toxicologists standing right there when you do it -- and that's not a prospect which players should be expected to put up with if it happens to their PCs, or DMs, if it happens to their hard-wrought BBEGs and ruins the adventure's dramatic end-battle.

[Joël of the FoS]

In 2e, it more tough when you were poinoned. Spider bite? Save or die.

I also see the 3e system as not blunt enough about poisons. When in 2e you get into battle with a giant spider, you were worrying. Not in 3e, or perhaps a lot less worrying...

That gives less fright power to Borcans... *sigh*

Joël

[Darkknight]

Poisons for the npcs... like arsenic for example are meant to kill slowly. Now when an assassin is targeting one of my pc's I either use the ones in the book with a higher dc. for exceptional craftsmanship or I make my own.

I am disappointed in 3e for what has happened to poison. As stated above PCs used to be afraid of the giant spider, or I remember one of my old charcaters being slowly eaten by centipedes as I failed the paralysis poison save.

[Malus Black]

In 2e, it more tough when you were poisoned. Spider bite? Save or die.

Given that save-or-die effects are generally major campaign-killers, I can't say I mourn the loss.

I also see the 3e system as not blunt enough about poisons. When in 2e you get into battle with a giant spider, you were worrying. Not in 3e, or perhaps a lot less worrying...

I'd say the Fort DC 12, 1d4 Strength damage of a CR 1 monstrous spider is nasty enough, especially when you face a colony of the hairy things. Also, it's Constitution-based, so throw in a wizard with Bear's Endurance and the save goes up to DC 14. Remember, when you hit Strength 0 you're helpless, which means that it's time for Coup de Graces all around.

That gives less fright power to Borcans... *sigh*

Hardly. You have to be exceedingly lucky to survive Black Lotus Extract (admittedly the nastiest poison in the core rules), and think of the fun you can have when the poisoner informs the poisoned PC that he has one minute left to live (when the next 3d6 Con damage hits) unless he gets a doze of Neutralize Poison, which the poisoner just so happens to have in a hidden compartment nearby. And, of course, there's all sorts of nasty special abilities around, like Ivana's kiss or Ivan's Borrowed Time.

[kottakinge]

I remenber a spider in a "S" book, can't rename which it was, a simple little spider who looks like, say a black window.
It's a calm spider but when it's hungry it bites, and is venom is enough to kill a whole village (the dc save is 30 or so!!!), something like the royal cobra in India which make whole village flee their homes when they saw one in the plantation, cool

[Joël of the FoS]

In 2e, it more tough when you were poisoned. Spider bite? Save or die.

Given that save-or-die effects are generally major campaign-killers, I can't say I mourn the loss.

Sure, my caracter Gotten did get killed by a bad save against a spider

But in 3e, save or paralysis would be much better. A poison that makes you loose 1d6 Co? Who cares, it will come back

Joël

[Malus Black]

In 2e, it more tough when you were poisoned. Spider bite? Save or die.

Given that save-or-die effects are generally major campaign-killers, I can't say I mourn the loss.

Sure, my character Gotten did get killed by a bad save against a spider

But in 3e, save or paralysis would be much better. A poison that makes you loose 1d6 Con? Who cares, it will come back

Sure, but will it come back in time? 1d6/1d6 isn't terribly much (although it can still max out to 12 Con damage, which could very well kill a character), but each point of Con modifier is going to make him lose 1 hit point per HD, and lower his Fort save for the next burst of poison. Not to mention that Black Adder Venom, which does 1d6/1d6 damage, is one of the cheapest poisons in the core rules at 120 gp (which might also have something to do with its measly DC 11 Fort save, but I digress. Saves can be modified).

The way I see it, poison, at least low-tier poison, is not meant to be used alone. Like Ray of Enfeeblement or Touch of Idiocy, they're great for turning the table on your enemies. Nasty fighter? Hit him with a Strength damaging poison and watch as his attack and damage drop. Hit him hard enough, and he can't even move in all that armor. Annoying spellcaster? Drop their primary casting stat and watch them become a commoner with poorly chosen feats. Not to mention that once you're ability damaged, it's going to stay that way for many days unless you've access to a Lesser Restoration or more powerful stuff. And you can be certain your enemies are going to go after you while you're weak.

As for the initial assassination scenario, there's two ways to go if you want to kill someone with poison alone. One is to shell out the cash for a high-quality poison like Wyvern poison, Deathblade, Burnt othur fumes, or, for those times you want to be absolutely certain, Black lotus extract. The other is to poison the guy several times. Infiltrate his home, poison his food, then poison his medicine. It's true that poison isn't the most efficient way of killing in D&D, but, then again, the game isn't called Rogues & Poison; it's a game about heroic fantasy, and getting killed by a spider in random encounter because you failed a save is about as anticlimactic as it gets.

[Joël of the FoS]

Sure, it's all the difference in the world with real life animal poisoning (which work against Co as in 3e for most except the deadliest), or the deadly apprehensions we had in 2e when facing these "save or die" things.

You are right in that 3e probably works better. But I would add a twist: to all poison dealing temporary Co damage, there could be a 10% chance of physical paralysis for a 1-4 rounds? That could be explained by the shock of the poison rush in the body.

Without going back to deadly 2e poison, it could put some thrill back?

Joël

[Rotipher of the FoS]

If you want. Or simply assign most poisons IYC an additional side-effect, chosen from the condition-list in the PHB (nauseated, shaken, etc). Let it hinge on a separate saving throw or tie its effects to failure of the initial save, as you prefer.

[Luke Fleeman]

FWIW, if you have an NPC who NEEDS to die by poison, or the players are very good about setting it up, I say let it happen. Easier than overhauling the rules.

[alhoon]

If you want. Or simply assign most poisons IYC an additional side-effect, chosen from the condition-list in the PHB (nauseated, shaken, etc). Let it hinge on a separate saving throw or tie its effects to failure of the initial save, as you prefer.

Nauseated! That's it!
A cool thing to coat your weapon with.

What I do:

I increase the DC of the ingested poisons and the damage a bit. Yes, in that strange world of fireballs, a taste of Arsenic won't kill the Aristocrat.
Also: I put more than one dose.
The mayor takes a sip from his glass... OK. Works as in the book (even give him a +4 to the save since the sip is small).
However When he quaffs all of it down, then he has 10 doses of arsenic to deal with. With DC of 15. A 10th level dwarf may survive that. The 3rd level mayor will be dead within the minute.

About the injury poisons however, I treat them as in the book. You coat the weapon, deal one dose with the injury. It may weaken, it may not weaken. However the costs of such poisons are very lower than normal (ie. a poison with DC 14 that deals 1d6 str/1d4 str would cost about 50 gold pieces per dose)

Exception: Vipers. When a snake bites you it may deliver much more poison that you would get from a coated weapon. So from a small deadly viper you would have to deal with ... 1d4 doses of poison. I also increase the DC from the laughable 11 to 13 or 14 for "normaly" poisonous snakes, because yes, snake bites kill people.

Now in some of them I'll add secondary effects, like Nausea, fatigue etc.