Rangers and the Gods

[Ail]

Hi everybody,

just a question, in RL do Rangers get their spells from Gods, as everywhere else?
How do you explain that a particularly brute ranger and unpious too suddenly gets spells when he reaches level 4? It's not likely that he suddenly converted... at least in my particular case.

Alex

[Rotipher of the FoS]

Nobody knows, for sure, where anyone in Ravenloft gets their divine spells from. A cleric may believe it's his deity, but might actually obtain his spells from the Dark Powers or his own depth of faith; a paladin feels it's the "powers of good" that grant her abilities, but can't prove that such things even exist. Druids might believe it's "nature" that they draw their divine magic from, yet AFAWK, nothing in the Land of Mists can really be called a "natural" phenomenon, by Material Plane standards.

As for the impious ranger, I'd personally rule -- in or out of Ravenloft -- that it's an intimate bond with, or insight into, natural forces, rather than any anthropomorphic "deity", which makes his spellcasting possible. He may not have faith in gods, but he could "have faith" that Nature is a powerful thing, laden with hidden mystical energies (the same ones that give rise to sylvan fey) that he can tap into, provided he remains aware of and in harmony with the wild. That works even if the ranger is a cynical, callous brute, as he could be getting in touch with Nature's unforgiving, "red in tooth and claw" aspects.

Of course, in Ravenloft, he might be wrong to think that's the case, and it's really the DPs granting his spells (and everybody else's). But that's getting into the territory of DM judgement calls and preferences; nothing in the published products ties us down to a particular explanation for divine magic's source.

[Ail]

Nobody knows, for sure, where anyone in Ravenloft gets their divine spells from. A cleric may believe it's his deity, but might actually obtain his spells from the Dark Powers or his own depth of faith; a paladin feels it's the "powers of good" that grant her abilities, but can't prove that such things even exist. Druids might believe it's "nature" that they draw their divine magic from, yet AFAWK, nothing in the Land of Mists can really be called a "natural" phenomenon, by Material Plane standards.

As for the impious ranger, I'd personally rule -- in or out of Ravenloft -- that it's an intimate bond with, or insight into, natural forces, rather than any anthropomorphic "deity", which makes his spellcasting possible. He may not have faith in gods, but he could "have faith" that Nature is a powerful thing, laden with hidden mystical energies (the same ones that give rise to sylvan fey) that he can tap into, provided he remains aware of and in harmony with the wild. That works even if the ranger is a cynical, callous brute, as he could be getting in touch with Nature's unforgiving, "red in tooth and claw" aspects.

Of course, in Ravenloft, he might be wrong to think that's the case, and it's really the DPs granting his spells (and everybody else's). But that's getting into the territory of DM judgement calls and preferences; nothing in the published products ties us down to a particular explanation for divine magic's source.

Thanks, no you're right. I don't want to know the truth as I know of the Unspoken Pact too. What I really needed is how the said ranger rationalizes it for himself .
guess you answered that already

Alex

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

The way I've usually handled it in my campaign is to look at the spells less like spells and more like talents that the ranger has picked up in his study of nature. Some are easier to represent than others this way. Speak with animals, for instance, is merely that he's learned the speech of animals, and can speak with them. (utterly preposterous in the real world, but in a fantasy setting, sure.) Cat's grace, Owl's wisdom, etc, is just the ranger emulating the animals he has studied. Magic Fang is his superior animal training skillz showing the animal where to bite for best effect, etc. Granted some don't fit this model, but in 3e, most do.

The only issue is rationalizing why he can only do these things for a set number of times per day, and why he has to choose once a day which he will do. I usually just sweep it under the rug and don't mention it. But if you must, you could say something like, "the bear seems uncommunicative today, and doesn't respond to you." rather than, "You didn't prepare speak w/animals today, so you can't cast it.

[Luke Fleeman]

There is a rule, in Complete Warrior, which gives a non-spellcasting ranger, if you are interested. I find it to be a little more Ravenloft-y, and a little more fo a tracker with lower magic.

[Gwenfloor]

I use several explanations in my game:

1. Unique talents the Ranger learned while studying nature. Cannot be duplicated by non-rangers as it is known by a specialized few.
2. A Ranger's empathy with the land around him allow him to learn abilities that others cannot learn, plus have a stronger bond with it that only she/he can feel. Kind of like telepaths being sensitive to minds.
3. Spirits of nature travel with the Ranger, giving him/her gifts to utilize as a reward for his/her dedication to nature. The Ranger receives these gifts knowingly or not; even skeptical rangers deserve rewards.

[ScS of the Fraternity]

You could mess with certain material components and rationalize it as the use of special herbs, plants and potions.
Magic fang might be a salve of special toxins, while owls wisdom might be a euphoric drug that increases one's perceptions.

[Jason of the Fraternity]

The only issue is rationalizing why he can only do these things for a set number of times per day, and why he has to choose once a day which he will do.

I've actually run into a similar problem with my current tabletop group as well. One of my players has a ranger character, and we tend to view the spells more like skills than divine castings. In order to alleviate some of the issues with choosing, I've allowed the ranger to spontaneously cast spells from their list (akin to the bard/sorcerer). Mind you, this is merely my own house rule, but the ranger still can only cast a limited number of spells per day as well as having a rather limited spell list to choose from. I just opened the floor a bit more to allow greater flexibility. In fact, if class balance becomes a bigger issue with allowing spontaneous casting, I might create a table for spells known to limit the selection (e.g., the ranger only learns so many mystic skills but is able to cast them as needed).

Just a question, in RL do Rangers get their spells from Gods, as everywhere else? How do you explain that a particularly brute ranger and unpious too suddenly gets spells when he reaches level 4?

Getting back to the topic at hand, I would say that I primarily following Gwen's examples above (primarily points 2 & 3). Ravenloft campaign or standard D&D, I rarely require the ranger to have a specific deity in order to gain their divine spells. I generally just work under the premise that the ranger has a special connection to the natural world that allows them to pick-up on certain mystic skills. They either learn natural rituals (see ScS's post for some good examples) or gain special gifts from the nature spirits.

[wolfgang_fener]

I've played a ranger for many years (actually, "Wolfgang Fener" is one of the rare character I did play as a player and not as a DM's npc ).

The guy was clearly Chaotic Good, which often meant he was quite a chaotic brute acting more like an animal especially in stressful situations. Even if not a "native american", he was raised by the equivalent of this culture somewhere in a DM created Forgotten Realms linked world. His animal totem was the wolf and I was always doing my best to play him somehow like a wolf. He was quite a cuning animal. Sometimes impulsive but also often sneeky and with a definitive "wolf pack" mentality relating to other PCs.

I did play this character in and out of Ravenloft (had a lot of fun doing the whole Adam's wrath module in solo with a great DM who gave me goose bumps a few times and other RL modules with other PCs).

I never really cared where the spells came from simply because I role played it in a native american kind of way, calling the spirits of animals and trees, burning herbs, and all. He believed in the existance of other gods but didn't really care about them, seing them as some kind of extraplanar creatures who just needed a herd of mortals to give them their powers. He was probably indirectly praying Sylvanus or Mieliky but who really care ?! For him he was just using what nature had to offer him, casting spells like someone pick an apple from a tree.

[wolfgang_fener]

I must also say that as a DM, I don't like the whole idea of having a special pantheon for RL. I prefer to assume people worship the gods from their land of origin, even if the faith often gets corrupted in RL. Unfortunately, it is not always easy to figure out where every domains came from.

[Luke Fleeman]

While that is all well and good to bring a faith, you still need something native. After so many years of existence there has to be localized religions.

And having a ranger get spells from "spirits" or what not probably still means he gets them from the Dark powers, nonetheless. I don't think there are any semantics to save him from that.

[wolfgang_fener]

Really using the DarkPowers means a Dm needs to figure out what is their purpose(s).

If the purpose is to torment the darklords, then it makes sense to provide spells to clerics, paladins and rangers who fight against the darklord's plans. If the PC ends up real close to destroying a darklord, then it doesn't make sense anymore since it would end the darklord's torment.

Seriously as a Dm I have to take a decision about that. Will I cut all spells out of my cleric PC once he eventually gets too close to destroying a Darklord or not ? I guess it is up to each DM to figure out who are the Darkpowers and what are their main purposes and goals but is there really a canon answer to those questions ?

[NeoTiamat]

As far as my observations go, it would seem that the DPs are really observers or experimenters, and the Demiplane is their petri-dish, if you will. Why is unknown, but they seem to have laid down certain rules and enforce them as necessary, and without any particular prejudice.

One way to think of it is to basically assume that the Dark Powers are out to prove something, and that all of Ravenloft is designed to create that proof. Granting divine spells is one of the ways that the DPs ensure that the experiment is carried out properly, much like the Mists are used to manipulate certain aspects by moving things (and PCs) around.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

Seriously as a Dm I have to take a decision about that. Will I cut all spells out of my cleric PC once he eventually gets too close to destroying a Darklord or not?

There are other ways to cope with this situation than to withdraw the PC's powers, which is highly unfair to the player.

- The DPs might restore the darklord later, a la Undying Soul

- The DPs might bring the darklord back in an even nastier form, such as a previously-living darklord becoming a ghost because the PCs killed him

- The DPs might want the darklord dead, so another villain can take his place (remember Camille and Bakholis?)

- The DPs might be bored with this particular darklord, and content to let him and his domain be destroyed


Note that there's no proof that deities don't grant spells to divine casters in Ravenloft, any more than there's proof that they do so. You don't have to assume that the DPs grant divine spells to anyone but Yagno and Elena: deities might be permitted to do that much for their followers, by the Unspoken Pact's terms IYC, even if they're denied the option of directly passing on orders or dropping by for a personal appearance.

[Luke Fleeman]

Will I cut all spells out of my cleric PC once he eventually gets too close to destroying a Darklord or not ?

I'm not sure why the Dark Powers would stop a PC from killing a Darklord. In the past, DLs have died, and someone has stepped in to take their place, or things just moved around.

You seem to be acting as though you have no power over the Dark Powers. Or that you need to pinpoin ttheir motivations. You don't. They are deus ex machina, a way for you to make things happen. A PC gets close to killing a DL, you make whatever you want to happen go down. The will of the DPs are not understood by mortals, who may not even know they exist.

That is why they grant the spells- so you can or cannto do as you please with their magical prowess, and the DPs are an "in-game" way to facilitate such actions.

There is no canon answers- except to use them as you see fit.