Expedition to Castle Ravenloft (cover)

[Jester of the FoS]

Ummm... I was really hoping this wouldn't happen... I think they're talking about this article (and I quote: "We’re going to use a format like this in some upcoming adventures").

Not that I can see how that format adventure would even work for Castle Ravenloft. But nevermind...

Oh please no... For the love of Ezra no...!

Hey, why not take all the roleplaying out of the game completely and let's just move counters around a board.

Not only would this format be exceedingly juvenile, I found it really hard to read with text boxes scattered about the page - it's just the way that the eyes scan a page. At least for someone who actually reads books and doesn't live their lives in front of a computer game. Anyway, we never use minis in our Ravenloft games, so for me a format like that would be pointless.

I have to say I much preferred the I3 example that they give in terms of encounter layout (I loved that series of modules back in the days).

I don't see how it would remove role-playing. The article even says how not having to look up things all the time and flip through books allowed the DMs to describe actions more and go into "scary monster voice".

Am I worried about EtCR? Not really. Why? Because, by checking the credits I see that the author of the article is not listed as an author of the book. The Delve format seems restricted to big conventions.

[Guardian of Twilight]

About the name thing... unless they give one heck of a good reason for the name change, is anyone else besides me going to change the name that Strahd says (Ireena) to what he calls out in I6 (Tatyana)?

[Drinnik Shoehorn]

About the name thing... unless they give one heck of a good reason for the name change, is anyone else besides me going to change the name that Strahd says (Ireena) to what he calls out in I6 (Tatyana)?

Ireena is the name of her reincarnation in I6, isn't it?

[Brandi]

Assuming they're really playing up elements of the 1st Edition version of Castle Ravenloft -- i.e. the "thinking gamer's dungeon-crawl" aspect, not the atmosphere or plot -- it's not totally incongruous; unfortunately, it's also inherently at odds with the thematic nature of the Ravenloft setting, post-1E.

But that's the thing, innit? I suspect that what WotC is doing right now is a straight-up 3.5 revival of I6-- and if they decide that people might like to see the setting again, well, that's another matter altogether.

[Guardian of Twilight]

Ireena is the name of her reincarnation in I6, isn't it?

Indeed it is.

[Kel-nage]

Am I worried about EtCR? Not really. Why? Because, by checking the credits I see that the author of the article is not listed as an author of the book. The Delve format seems restricted to big conventions.

Allow me to respectifully disagree there, Jester. Just because the authors of said article are different to the authors of EtCR, it certainly does not mean that the authors of EtCR haven't used that format. I think it highly unlikely that WoTC allows their authors to work completely independantly.

Secondly, whilst it was originally used for a convention, they do explicitly say they (which I take to represent WoTC rather than those two authors, see above point) plan to use that format for more adventures. In fact, the quote by Jakob merely confirmed that for me:

The Castle Ravenloft adventure will debut a new style of reference material to handle tactical combat play for DMs to use and is more of a test to see how fans like it for possible future use.

I don't really think they could say it in any stronger terms.

As for whether the format will be any good... As the developers said, their examples were quickly made and when the real adventures come, they'll use drawn maps, so hopefuly the adventure will "look the part". That said - the format does seem to be a bit towards the dungeon crawl end of the spectrum... I think it highly unlikely that EtCR will be anything other than a straight-to-3.5 version of I6.

This does dishearten me slightly to think that WoTC's first real Ravenloft release is going to be a tester for the entire D&D system. Makes me feel that maybe they aren't going to take it seriously (if it fails, they can blame it on Ravenloft, if it works, they applaud the adventure format).

[Jester of the FoS]

a) It'd hardly be a "a new style of reference material to handle tactical combat play" if it'd been used in 4-5 cons over the past year.

I think it highly unlikely that WoTC allows their authors to work completely independantly.

b) But getting all 20-30 writers from different branches of WotC together for a group meeting to discuss everything is physically impossible. Having the MMIV team send the new stat blocks to everyone is one thing, and giving select people a look at new books is another, but having the people who write web articles and design con delves share ideas and tell the longtime writers how to handle their combats is something entirely different.
At this point it's still speculation and could go either way. There are many adventure products being planned and released and there's simply not enough information to make anything but a wild guess motivated by a visceral gut reaction.

c) Castle Ravenloft has *always* been a giant, player-killing dungeon crawl. You kick in the door and see what gothic creature is in there now. The only difference between it and other giant dungeons is the atmosphere. It's still a huge castle with illogical layout, rooms no one seems to use and no way for the people who live there to actually live there or navigate.

This does dishearten me slightly to think that WoTC's first real Ravenloft release is going to be a tester for the entire D&D system. Makes me feel that maybe they aren't going to take it seriously (if it fails, they can blame it on Ravenloft, if it works, they applaud the adventure format).

d) They're letting Ravenloft test something new. They're doing something risky and relying on the strength of the adventure to bring people in and try it. They wouldn't take a chance like this if they didn't have faith in the product, otherwise they'd simply make it blindingly generic.

[Jakob]

This does dishearten me slightly to think that WoTC's first real Ravenloft release is going to be a tester for the entire D&D system. Makes me feel that maybe they aren't going to take it seriously (if it fails, they can blame it on Ravenloft, if it works, they applaud the adventure format).

d) They're letting Ravenloft test something new. They're doing something risky and relying on the strength of the adventure to bring people in and try it. They wouldn't take a chance like this if they didn't have faith in the product, otherwise they'd simply make it blindingly generic.

Sorry, Jester, but I agree with Kel-Nage.
Maybe I didn't some times ago, but after knowing how the idea of Dragon Magic was born, I lost all my confidence in WotC.

There are times when NOTHING is better than ANYTHING.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

I for one think that format is actually pretty darn interesting. In fact, I've been trying to do similar stuff for years. (have every contingency prepped to minimize lookup times and rules errors). Miniatures and interesting tactical situations and terrains can make "hack and slash" battles into memorable scenes, IMHO.


(What's the story behind Dragon Magic? I'm curious now...)

[Jester of the FoS]

There was a hole in the printing schedual and they needed to quickly find a book to write for it.
They found out that books with the words "dragon" or "magic" in the cover sold well and voila.
Dumb? Yes. But for a quick decision it works. And as long as it's written well with neat ideas it doesn't really matter how they came up with the idea.

I'm just looking forward to the next two compendiums. They have Magic Items coming soon and Feats might follow after.

[Algaris]

I must admit I actually like the Delve format and will be quite pleased if they use it, or a modified version, for Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, as long as they don’t dump all the flavour text and turn it into a dumbed down hack and slash affair.

When I finally get around to sorting out my campaign I think I’ll pinch the format for myself. I have a lot of difficulty with working out distances and keeping track of that is going on. This’ll help rectify the situation nicely.

[DeepShadow of FoS]

Sorry, Jester, but I agree with Kel-Nage.
Maybe I didn't some times ago, but after knowing how the idea of Dragon Magic was born, I lost all my confidence in WotC.

So...was Dragon Magic badly written, or are we back to judging books by their covers (or birth origin)?

[Checks title of thread] Never mind.

[ScS of the Fraternity]

Come on now, Deep, there's a limit on how many chances Wotc gets.

how about dragons of Faerun? Draconomicon? Every other of the countless instances of Draconic prestige classes. The thousands of Draconic spells introduced in the aptly named Dragon magazine.

Is this 160 page book an admission that they all had their heads up their wow-holes when they wrote all of that?
Or is it more likely that the book in question is just another rehashing and retconing of the same old topic.

Whether or not its a good product (yet to be released, as I recall) is meaningless. You can't write the same book again and again.

Which kind of goes back to this Castle Ravenloft issue....

[DeepShadow of FoS]

Whether or not its a good product (yet to be released, as I recall) is meaningless. You can't write the same book again and again.

Which kind of goes back to this Castle Ravenloft issue....

You're right about it being the same issue, but you've managed to walk around the main point without hitting it.

If this is the same book again, then it can't really be a good product. But no matter how many times something has been done, there's always room for a genuine new twist on things.

Either way, I'm going to wait until I read the book before I start in with praise or complaints. If it's the same old thing, I'll complain along with the rest of you, but after all the fresh takes on old topics we've seen around this board, I'm disappointed to see people rise to such snap judgements.

I don't think it's a matter of how many chances 'WotC' gets. I try to evaluate everything individually, based on more than a cover, a page count and a couple of interviews.

P.S. If you think I'm a touch sensitive about this topic, you're right. I spent over six months trying to put a fresh spin on Gothic Earth, all while reading pages of criticism of Jade Horror that were so utterly baseless I had check three times to make sure they weren't talking about another book.

[Drinnik Shoehorn]

Come on now, Deep, there's a limit on how many chances Wotc gets.

how about dragons of Faerun? Draconomicon? Every other of the countless instances of Draconic prestige classes. The thousands of Draconic spells introduced in the aptly named Dragon magazine.

Wait... you have problems with books about Dragons in D&D?