Care to help make a Gothic Asia netbook?
HuManBing, do you frequent the Wizards of the Coast Boards at all? The Character Optimization board seems to thrive on crunching numbers, I'm willing to bet they could help tweak your monk idea to make it balanced.
"No, but evil is still being — Is having reason — Being reasonable! Mousie understands? Is always being reason. Is punishing world for not being... Like in head. Is always reason. World should be different, is reason."
Yes, I do visit the WotC boards, but I'm also well aware that there's a fairly hostile culture there that thrives on bashing anybody who tries to deviate from the core rules and which basically seems to subsist solely on showing the whole forum how well they've memorized the RAW (rules as written) and how irredeemably wrong headed everybody else's interpretation is.
This, despite the fact that one anonymous poster's disapproval is not going to make me personally stop doing something in my own damn campaign... no matter how ungracious or scathing that disapproval is.
I might post something there. We'll see how it goes but right now I'm just balancing a few things out by gut feeling rather than mathematical analysis.
This, despite the fact that one anonymous poster's disapproval is not going to make me personally stop doing something in my own damn campaign... no matter how ungracious or scathing that disapproval is.
I might post something there. We'll see how it goes but right now I'm just balancing a few things out by gut feeling rather than mathematical analysis.
I really dislike the WOTC boards for the very same reason. They don't take too kindly to most homebrew rules and a lot of them will argue tooth and nail about how anyone who doesn't go along with the RAW is somehow blaspheming against the gods of gaming. (GYGAX BE PRRAISED!)
As for the monk:
The strength of the monk is that he can do a bit of everything and he's a pretty hardy sort. That ironically is also his weakness in that he doesn't really know how to do anything all that well. In terms of his damage output, flurry of blows can only be used on a full attack, which requires you go toe-to-toe against someone... not an attractive option for someone with a d8 hit die and no armor. Without a proper amount of crunching, the best a monk can hope for is to be a distraction at best. That and perhaps leverage their high saves, higher speed and spell resistance to stand a better chance against a caster. This means their role within the party is actually pretty limited as opposed what they were meant to be by their flavor text. (that role being, the mysterious warrior who utilizes deadly martial arts as well as perform other mystical feats.)
That role, however, is not supported by the mechanics because of several reasons:
1. D&D handicaps melee warriors once past 6th level. This is a much larger debate that has raged for ages on any D&D board. But there is one truth that cannot be disputed: magic always trumps might. While a level 11 melee fighter going on level 12 will effectively gain on average 5.5 hit points, +1 BAB, and some other skill bonuses (and maybe a small plus to damage), all this progressing linearly, the mage who goes from level 11 to level 12 gains a new spell level that exponentially increases their power level due some of it's extremely crippling effects. Combine this with the exponentially increasing powers of the monsters at certain levels, fighters have to start relying more and more on wizards to contribute.
So, basically, past a certain level, paladins/fighters/rangers/monks/anyone not a full progression caster will see their role quickly dwindle as they get forced more and more into specialized roles.
2. Monks are just not very good at the role they were meant to carry out.
They are at the heart of it, a meleer, somebody who dishes out damage up close and personal. However, their BAB, combined with their lower HD, combined with the intrinsic higher difficulty to get a better AC (wis + dex + 1 point per 4 levels) means that they are just not going to be as good as a fighter in doing what they need to do.
Now granted, they're supposed to be an agile fighter who relies more on maneuvering around to not get hit. But again, D&D combat mechanics doesn't support that kind of tactic very well. (Not without a plethora of feats to go with it)
this is where ToB martial adept classes come in very handy. They have options, lots of them.
This is why the fastest and easiest solution to bettering the monk is actually to NOT better the monk but to just drop the monk and use the swordsage in it's place.
However, that's not really a practical solution for the most part since there are things a monk can do that a swordsage can never do. (i.e. not age and increase their unarmed damage die)
HuManBeings idea of giving Monks a martial progression is a good one, in my opinion. Allowing a monk to pick up some martial discipline will give them the extra options and extra firepower that they need to compliment their role. There are several details that needs to be worked out though. Most notably, how should they compare to their martial adept counterparts?
We can consider this in 4 general contexts: melee defense, magic defense, damage output, and maneuverability. I don't have my books with me right now, but when I get a chacne to, I'll try to put down some numbers for comparison so we can best figure out what we should do with this.
As for the monk:
The strength of the monk is that he can do a bit of everything and he's a pretty hardy sort. That ironically is also his weakness in that he doesn't really know how to do anything all that well. In terms of his damage output, flurry of blows can only be used on a full attack, which requires you go toe-to-toe against someone... not an attractive option for someone with a d8 hit die and no armor. Without a proper amount of crunching, the best a monk can hope for is to be a distraction at best. That and perhaps leverage their high saves, higher speed and spell resistance to stand a better chance against a caster. This means their role within the party is actually pretty limited as opposed what they were meant to be by their flavor text. (that role being, the mysterious warrior who utilizes deadly martial arts as well as perform other mystical feats.)
That role, however, is not supported by the mechanics because of several reasons:
1. D&D handicaps melee warriors once past 6th level. This is a much larger debate that has raged for ages on any D&D board. But there is one truth that cannot be disputed: magic always trumps might. While a level 11 melee fighter going on level 12 will effectively gain on average 5.5 hit points, +1 BAB, and some other skill bonuses (and maybe a small plus to damage), all this progressing linearly, the mage who goes from level 11 to level 12 gains a new spell level that exponentially increases their power level due some of it's extremely crippling effects. Combine this with the exponentially increasing powers of the monsters at certain levels, fighters have to start relying more and more on wizards to contribute.
So, basically, past a certain level, paladins/fighters/rangers/monks/anyone not a full progression caster will see their role quickly dwindle as they get forced more and more into specialized roles.
2. Monks are just not very good at the role they were meant to carry out.
They are at the heart of it, a meleer, somebody who dishes out damage up close and personal. However, their BAB, combined with their lower HD, combined with the intrinsic higher difficulty to get a better AC (wis + dex + 1 point per 4 levels) means that they are just not going to be as good as a fighter in doing what they need to do.
Now granted, they're supposed to be an agile fighter who relies more on maneuvering around to not get hit. But again, D&D combat mechanics doesn't support that kind of tactic very well. (Not without a plethora of feats to go with it)
this is where ToB martial adept classes come in very handy. They have options, lots of them.
This is why the fastest and easiest solution to bettering the monk is actually to NOT better the monk but to just drop the monk and use the swordsage in it's place.
However, that's not really a practical solution for the most part since there are things a monk can do that a swordsage can never do. (i.e. not age and increase their unarmed damage die)
HuManBeings idea of giving Monks a martial progression is a good one, in my opinion. Allowing a monk to pick up some martial discipline will give them the extra options and extra firepower that they need to compliment their role. There are several details that needs to be worked out though. Most notably, how should they compare to their martial adept counterparts?
We can consider this in 4 general contexts: melee defense, magic defense, damage output, and maneuverability. I don't have my books with me right now, but when I get a chacne to, I'll try to put down some numbers for comparison so we can best figure out what we should do with this.
In the ToB, there are nine disciplines:
We could theoretically make all sorts of temples and fighting styles available by mixing and matching the styles. The default Swordsage, for example, has access to 6 preset disciplines; the default Warblade to 5; and the default Crusader to 3. We could make a variant Swordsage by merely giving him access to 6 disciplines that don't quite match the ones in the ToB.
Most of these can also be mixed with an unarmed attack, if you go with the base rule that a given discipline allows the fist to be used as a 1d6/20 bludgeoning weapon. (And at later levels if the Monk's unarmed damage dice goes up, you're going to be able to stack maneuver bonuses on that and put enemies into a whole world of hurt.)
Also as an aesthetic point, I would suggest renaming some of the disciplines entirely if we're going to keep them in those categories. If nothing else, they need to be translated into Chinese.
Additionally, we could make Monk classes that have access to limited martial maneuvers. (I suggest the simplest method might be to give them access to one single discipline of ToB maneuvers and then let them progress at a rate of 1 level of martial maneuver per two levels of Monk class.) This would make the Asian Monk class stronger than the PHB class, but if you believe like me that the PHB Monk class is underpowered, then this is probably a step in the right direction.
Also, I personally don't have an aesthetic problem with Asian monks being slightly more powerful than European monks, given that Asia is pretty much the historical origin of martial artist monks, and DnD basically commandeered and anachronized it to a European setting in the first place. Doing this would function as a campaign-setting-specific bonus, rather akin to how Dark Sun characters get a level bonus straight off the bat because of the environmental surroundings of their setting.
(Note that my favoritism extends only to Asian monks. I do not think that Asian Fighters or Rogues should get this slight bonus, and as you'll read below I propose stripping Fighters and Rogues of class bonuses if we give them access to maneuvers.)
Of the disciplines, Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Setting Sun, Stone Dragon, and Tiger Claw strike me as highly suitable for temples: they focus on the internal health of the practitioner and seem like they could naturally evolve out of meditation and body training, as was the case historically in Shaolin martial arts. Tiger Claw especially sounds very similar to Nan Quan (historically a southern style where the hands strike in raking motions like tiger claws instead of closed fists like Shaolin style).
The other four disciplines sound perfectly useable but they'd be better used in a non-monastic setting. Desert Wind could well be a Mongolian steppe style martial art, dedicated to moving quickly for the kill. It would probably be geographically closer to the Manchurian or Mongolian areas, or correspondingly to the Jorpuk Steppes and Endless Taiga domains in Asianloft.
Shadow Hand strikes me as being very evocative of the ninjitsu or assassin type classes. This could be a good discipline to allow some Rogue cross class. (The Rogue class would have to sacrifice some inherent powers for this access.)
The final two, Devoted Spirit and White Raven, are much more militaristic and don't really belong in a temple. Devoted Spirit could at a stretch be given to religious fanatics (perhaps in the Weixiao Tiandiguo domain... the one that I made to copy the Boxer Rebellion Christian kingdom of the 1800s) with a military bent, or perhaps to a particularly militant temple. One possibility is that Fighters in the employ of the Emperor do gain access to this discipline, because of their unearthly devotion to defending the Throne.
White Raven is much more group-tactics oriented, and definitely would fit well into a Wang's (King) or Huangdi's (Emperor) elite guard. Worthy generals and mercenaries alike might have this (perhaps extending to the Jorpuk and Taiga clans too).
Another issue is that these do not really tap into the wealth of cultural background for an internalized "qi" based martial art. The closest I can think of to that would be the Psychic Warrior, but that's opening a whole other can of worms with psionic disciplines (of which there are six and we could quite possibly come up with a list of some that would fit right in with an Asian campaign).
To address what Elliott said about the Fighter class still being way weak, we could do something similar with the standard Fighter class too that I've proposed to the Monk class. Give them access to one discipline only, and let them advance in that at a rate of 1 level of martial maneuver per two levels of Monk class. However, this would then make Asian style fighters more powerful than Western style fighters, and I'm not okay with that, because Fighters are common to all cultures and there's no historical justification for that particular imbalance (unlike with monks, above).
We could strip a Fighter of a few or even all of his free martial proficiency slots and give him access to martial disciplines. At the very least, we should probably trade off things like the Heavy Armor Proficiency if the Asian Fighter wants to have access to limited martial arts maneuvers. (Historically, Asian warriors wore somewhat less than Western warriors in the way of metal armor, relying more on lighter armor... in the DnD system this is replicated poorly because armor tends to have an unfeasibly high Dex cap - a Chain Shirt, for example, still allows a person with Dex 18 to move at full speed AC bonus. If we had a more equitable system in place where heavy armor had much stiffer Dex AC caps, then you might have a "protection vs. dodge" trade off. Generally, Asian armors seemed to favor mobility and flexibility with a smaller degree of protection.)
For those of us who subscribe to the idea of rogues with martial arts abilities, perhaps Asian rogues can sacrifice some of the trap building and other bonuses of Western rogues, and instead gain access to Shadow Hand discipline of martial maneuvers.
Again, if we're going to give martial maneuver access to Asian Fighters and Rogues, we should penalize them in other ways to maintain balance. The only class that I personally think is justifiably exempt from this is the Monk, because a) it's underpowered anyway, and b) DnD did the cultural equivalent of breaking, entry, and robbery by Westernizing Monks in the PHB and Westernizing all martial artists in the ToB, when Asian monks where the primary historical example of unarmed combatants in the first place.
- Desert Wind (emphasizes fire-like attacks and wind-like movement)
- Devoted Spirit (draws on paladinlike devotion with a strong divine flavor)
- Diamond Mind (sharp perception leading to quick strikes)
- Iron Heart (oneness with heavy weaponry leads to more damaging attacks)
- Setting Sun (trickery and wrong-footing your opponent)
- Shadow Hand (trickery and sneaking like ninja or assassins)
- Stone Dragon (immovability and endurance)
- Tiger Claw (animalistic style taps into unconscious ferocity for moves)
- White Raven (teamwork and leadership)
We could theoretically make all sorts of temples and fighting styles available by mixing and matching the styles. The default Swordsage, for example, has access to 6 preset disciplines; the default Warblade to 5; and the default Crusader to 3. We could make a variant Swordsage by merely giving him access to 6 disciplines that don't quite match the ones in the ToB.
Most of these can also be mixed with an unarmed attack, if you go with the base rule that a given discipline allows the fist to be used as a 1d6/20 bludgeoning weapon. (And at later levels if the Monk's unarmed damage dice goes up, you're going to be able to stack maneuver bonuses on that and put enemies into a whole world of hurt.)
Also as an aesthetic point, I would suggest renaming some of the disciplines entirely if we're going to keep them in those categories. If nothing else, they need to be translated into Chinese.
Additionally, we could make Monk classes that have access to limited martial maneuvers. (I suggest the simplest method might be to give them access to one single discipline of ToB maneuvers and then let them progress at a rate of 1 level of martial maneuver per two levels of Monk class.) This would make the Asian Monk class stronger than the PHB class, but if you believe like me that the PHB Monk class is underpowered, then this is probably a step in the right direction.
Also, I personally don't have an aesthetic problem with Asian monks being slightly more powerful than European monks, given that Asia is pretty much the historical origin of martial artist monks, and DnD basically commandeered and anachronized it to a European setting in the first place. Doing this would function as a campaign-setting-specific bonus, rather akin to how Dark Sun characters get a level bonus straight off the bat because of the environmental surroundings of their setting.
(Note that my favoritism extends only to Asian monks. I do not think that Asian Fighters or Rogues should get this slight bonus, and as you'll read below I propose stripping Fighters and Rogues of class bonuses if we give them access to maneuvers.)
Of the disciplines, Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Setting Sun, Stone Dragon, and Tiger Claw strike me as highly suitable for temples: they focus on the internal health of the practitioner and seem like they could naturally evolve out of meditation and body training, as was the case historically in Shaolin martial arts. Tiger Claw especially sounds very similar to Nan Quan (historically a southern style where the hands strike in raking motions like tiger claws instead of closed fists like Shaolin style).
The other four disciplines sound perfectly useable but they'd be better used in a non-monastic setting. Desert Wind could well be a Mongolian steppe style martial art, dedicated to moving quickly for the kill. It would probably be geographically closer to the Manchurian or Mongolian areas, or correspondingly to the Jorpuk Steppes and Endless Taiga domains in Asianloft.
Shadow Hand strikes me as being very evocative of the ninjitsu or assassin type classes. This could be a good discipline to allow some Rogue cross class. (The Rogue class would have to sacrifice some inherent powers for this access.)
The final two, Devoted Spirit and White Raven, are much more militaristic and don't really belong in a temple. Devoted Spirit could at a stretch be given to religious fanatics (perhaps in the Weixiao Tiandiguo domain... the one that I made to copy the Boxer Rebellion Christian kingdom of the 1800s) with a military bent, or perhaps to a particularly militant temple. One possibility is that Fighters in the employ of the Emperor do gain access to this discipline, because of their unearthly devotion to defending the Throne.
White Raven is much more group-tactics oriented, and definitely would fit well into a Wang's (King) or Huangdi's (Emperor) elite guard. Worthy generals and mercenaries alike might have this (perhaps extending to the Jorpuk and Taiga clans too).
Another issue is that these do not really tap into the wealth of cultural background for an internalized "qi" based martial art. The closest I can think of to that would be the Psychic Warrior, but that's opening a whole other can of worms with psionic disciplines (of which there are six and we could quite possibly come up with a list of some that would fit right in with an Asian campaign).
To address what Elliott said about the Fighter class still being way weak, we could do something similar with the standard Fighter class too that I've proposed to the Monk class. Give them access to one discipline only, and let them advance in that at a rate of 1 level of martial maneuver per two levels of Monk class. However, this would then make Asian style fighters more powerful than Western style fighters, and I'm not okay with that, because Fighters are common to all cultures and there's no historical justification for that particular imbalance (unlike with monks, above).
We could strip a Fighter of a few or even all of his free martial proficiency slots and give him access to martial disciplines. At the very least, we should probably trade off things like the Heavy Armor Proficiency if the Asian Fighter wants to have access to limited martial arts maneuvers. (Historically, Asian warriors wore somewhat less than Western warriors in the way of metal armor, relying more on lighter armor... in the DnD system this is replicated poorly because armor tends to have an unfeasibly high Dex cap - a Chain Shirt, for example, still allows a person with Dex 18 to move at full speed AC bonus. If we had a more equitable system in place where heavy armor had much stiffer Dex AC caps, then you might have a "protection vs. dodge" trade off. Generally, Asian armors seemed to favor mobility and flexibility with a smaller degree of protection.)
For those of us who subscribe to the idea of rogues with martial arts abilities, perhaps Asian rogues can sacrifice some of the trap building and other bonuses of Western rogues, and instead gain access to Shadow Hand discipline of martial maneuvers.
Again, if we're going to give martial maneuver access to Asian Fighters and Rogues, we should penalize them in other ways to maintain balance. The only class that I personally think is justifiably exempt from this is the Monk, because a) it's underpowered anyway, and b) DnD did the cultural equivalent of breaking, entry, and robbery by Westernizing Monks in the PHB and Westernizing all martial artists in the ToB, when Asian monks where the primary historical example of unarmed combatants in the first place.
personally, I think the best way to handle this is to use feats as the primary measurement. This way, even a western fighter, if they play with the ToB material, is allowed to pickup on the discipline with relative ease.
the main thing is the progression pace and how many maneuvers they can know/ready in one time.
I don't think spending one feat should buy you access to an entire progression. But at the same time, I don't think we should make it as tight as 1 feat = 1 maneuver like they had in the ToB. (talk about stingy)
the main thing is the progression pace and how many maneuvers they can know/ready in one time.
I don't think spending one feat should buy you access to an entire progression. But at the same time, I don't think we should make it as tight as 1 feat = 1 maneuver like they had in the ToB. (talk about stingy)
Some more martial school
Lu Shan sword
Sitting in an adjacent mountain next to the Shu mountain is the Lu mountain, one of the largest peaks in all of the Hua kingdom. (The entire range is known as the Hua mountain)
The Lu Mountain is also home of the Lu Shan swordsmen, another group of school of swordsman who share it's roots with the Shu swordsman.
However, the Lu sword has developed in a drastically different direction than the Shu sword. The Shu sword has taken on a far more spiritual and contemplative nature and many of it's students often find themselves becoming more philosophers than warriors.
The Lu sword, however, while taken from the same root as the Shu sword, have taken on a far more application based regime and thus tend to evolved into a more combative style oriented, while the philosophical and spiritual aspects have become secondary traits.
The core of the entire Lu swordplay is speed. Many of those who witness the Lu sword in action can attest that the swordplay and martial system that is introduced by the Lu sword is really not all that special or powerful. What does make it powerful is the level of chi that the user builds up, which feeds into their speed, which unlike it's near pacifist like brother, they tend to produce more warriors that travel the land and put their skills to use.
However, despite this difference in philosophy, the two schools share an alliance with one another. along with three other mountain clans, they form the Five Mountain alliance that has become a stablizing force along the Hua mountain area. (Something that the local governments felt no compunction in tapping for talent)
Perhaps of all the mountain sword clans, the Lu is the most prolific in producing students who make a name for themselves, partially because their philosophy emphasizes on the application of the sword and it's service.
Because of the highly technical application based training they have, the Lu sword produces by majority a lot of warblades (via the ToB) and fighters who specialize in the Iron Heart and Diamond Mind discipline.
Special Clan rules: all martial adepts who are Lu sword trained can take Iron Heart and Diamond Mind as one of their disciplines of choice but they are barred from taking Shadow Hand or Stone Dragon disciplines.
Major players of the Lu Shan sword:
Luo Qin Ze - Warblade 14
The leader of the Lu Shan Sword. Many people know him as "The Gentleman" who shows a high level of grace and poise within the martial circles. His reputation is that of a true gentleman and an honorable man.
Ever since his youth, Luo Qin Ze has shown himself to be martial adept with no lack of talent. At the age of 13, he was already a more accomplished swordsman than most adults twice his age. By 26 he was hailed as one of the great prodigies of his time and by 30 he was the leader of the Lu sword and the defacto leader of the entire Hua mountain warriors.
Yi Qinfeng - Warblade 10
Yi Qinfeng is the living progeny of the proper Lu sword. He practices what many considered to be the most orthodox form of the Lu sword. He is constantly looking for the one student with enough talent so that he can pass on the Lu sword proper.
Wu Cheng - Warblade 8
Wu Cheng is quite the anomoly in the Lu sword, mostly because he only has one arm. However, this doesn't make him any less deadly or any less of respected in the clan. People have said that his sword is so fast, it cuts faster than the speed of thought.
Lu Shan sword
Sitting in an adjacent mountain next to the Shu mountain is the Lu mountain, one of the largest peaks in all of the Hua kingdom. (The entire range is known as the Hua mountain)
The Lu Mountain is also home of the Lu Shan swordsmen, another group of school of swordsman who share it's roots with the Shu swordsman.
However, the Lu sword has developed in a drastically different direction than the Shu sword. The Shu sword has taken on a far more spiritual and contemplative nature and many of it's students often find themselves becoming more philosophers than warriors.
The Lu sword, however, while taken from the same root as the Shu sword, have taken on a far more application based regime and thus tend to evolved into a more combative style oriented, while the philosophical and spiritual aspects have become secondary traits.
The core of the entire Lu swordplay is speed. Many of those who witness the Lu sword in action can attest that the swordplay and martial system that is introduced by the Lu sword is really not all that special or powerful. What does make it powerful is the level of chi that the user builds up, which feeds into their speed, which unlike it's near pacifist like brother, they tend to produce more warriors that travel the land and put their skills to use.
However, despite this difference in philosophy, the two schools share an alliance with one another. along with three other mountain clans, they form the Five Mountain alliance that has become a stablizing force along the Hua mountain area. (Something that the local governments felt no compunction in tapping for talent)
Perhaps of all the mountain sword clans, the Lu is the most prolific in producing students who make a name for themselves, partially because their philosophy emphasizes on the application of the sword and it's service.
Because of the highly technical application based training they have, the Lu sword produces by majority a lot of warblades (via the ToB) and fighters who specialize in the Iron Heart and Diamond Mind discipline.
Special Clan rules: all martial adepts who are Lu sword trained can take Iron Heart and Diamond Mind as one of their disciplines of choice but they are barred from taking Shadow Hand or Stone Dragon disciplines.
Major players of the Lu Shan sword:
Luo Qin Ze - Warblade 14
The leader of the Lu Shan Sword. Many people know him as "The Gentleman" who shows a high level of grace and poise within the martial circles. His reputation is that of a true gentleman and an honorable man.
Ever since his youth, Luo Qin Ze has shown himself to be martial adept with no lack of talent. At the age of 13, he was already a more accomplished swordsman than most adults twice his age. By 26 he was hailed as one of the great prodigies of his time and by 30 he was the leader of the Lu sword and the defacto leader of the entire Hua mountain warriors.
Yi Qinfeng - Warblade 10
Yi Qinfeng is the living progeny of the proper Lu sword. He practices what many considered to be the most orthodox form of the Lu sword. He is constantly looking for the one student with enough talent so that he can pass on the Lu sword proper.
Wu Cheng - Warblade 8
Wu Cheng is quite the anomoly in the Lu sword, mostly because he only has one arm. However, this doesn't make him any less deadly or any less of respected in the clan. People have said that his sword is so fast, it cuts faster than the speed of thought.
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The Whistler
- Evil Genius
- Posts: 1454
- Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2007 7:38 pm
- Location: Southshore
Y'know, nobody's done a domain writeup for the sea yet... I have this concept in my head of a conquest-hungry, evil-Zheng-He-type darklord. Say he wants to reach the Core and pound it into submission to the Hua empire, but his fleet can never make it through the mists (and he's trapped in Asianloft's sea by definition, of course). He'd try to subdue neighboring countries instead, but he just keeps making navigational errors, and encountering storms, and facing inopportune mutinies...
...OK, I read that over again, and it sounded like: "It's Drakov...but on a BOAT!" Any other ideas?
...OK, I read that over again, and it sounded like: "It's Drakov...but on a BOAT!" Any other ideas?
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The Giamarga
- Evil Genius
- Posts: 2313
- Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 7:11 pm
- Location: wandering
There's also the monk variant fighting styles from UA.
it's interesting. but it really doesn't fix any of the problems with a monk. Plus, the rules written for the fighting style acquisition is pretty strict. That makes it a pretty insignificant upgrade for the monk.
The Whistler: I wonder what a Chinese guy saying "ARRRGGGHHH! Tis a mutiny!" would sound like.
The Whistler: I wonder what a Chinese guy saying "ARRRGGGHHH! Tis a mutiny!" would sound like.
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Rotipher of the FoS
- Thieving Crow
- Posts: 4683
- Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 4:18 pm
Maybe his intended method of conquest isn't military, but magical. He might possess some terrible artifact or know some awful spell that would unleash devastating forces upon a nation -- storms, demons, curses, etc --but he can't reach the shore to invoke it. That would be a bit of a change from Drakov, who's decidedly hands-on in his methods.The Whistler wrote:...OK, I read that over again, and it sounded like: "It's Drakov...but on a BOAT!" Any other ideas?
"Who [u]cares[/u] what the Dark Powers are? They're [i]bastards![/i] That's all I need to know of them." -- Crow
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The Whistler
- Evil Genius
- Posts: 1454
- Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2007 7:38 pm
- Location: Southshore
Ooh, I like it! Here's my attempt at filling in a backstory for the guy based on that concept:
-----------------
Let's say that before the Admiral was an admiral, he was a wizard and minor duke in a coastal region of Que, and often struggled in vain to heighten the reputation of and impose order upon his duchy--but he wasn't too charismatic or good at politicking, and his state was tiny and pretty fractious, so he didn't do too good a job of it. Enter the Orb of Allegiance, which he stumbled over by coincidence in a dusty archive. The Orb is effectively a citizenship-enforcing device: when a leader channels his focus through it, he can make a given person subscribe wholeheartedly to the political and social standards of his state. In the past, the Orb's power was put toward good ends (i.e. instantly rehabilitating felons), but was only to be used *carefully.* After all, it may not have been a mind control device, but it was darn close...
The duke was *not* as careful as he should have been: soon after discovering the Orb, he reasoned that if one unquestionably loyal subject was good, an entire nation of unquestionably loyal subjects was even better. Hoping to consolidate his authority once and for all, he unleashed the concentrated power of the Orb on the population of his entire state--intending not just to wipe out his citizens' desire to rebel and commit crimes, but to summarily rewrite *every single opinion they had* that differed from his. With the Orb's magic stretched to the limits of safety, the minds of the populace simply couldn't take the strain: most of the state's inhabitants suffered complete mental breakdowns, and the state ripped itself apart in fits of psychosis while the duke fled on his personal yacht, assuming darklordship over the sea in the process.
Since then, the Admiral has obtained a fleet and a commission from the Hua emperor, who visited him aboardship--though he doesn't know it, the imperial government awarded him the admiralship in order to get him out of the Empire's hair and prevent him from causing any more trouble domestically. The Admiral is acutely aware that since he fled his duchy he no longer has a state to rule, and aches to use the Orb of Allegiance on the population of some foreign territory; he is convinced that what happened in his homeland was a fluke, and that the next time he magically subjugates a territory everything will go according to plan. However since receiving his commission, he has never once made landfall: storms and navigational errors plague him wherever he travels, preventing him from reaching his destinations. To date, he doesn’t know why his voyages are perpetually unsuccessful, though he is obsessed with discovering the reason.
His crew provides little help on this subject. You see, the Admiral is unable to turn the Orb of Allegiance off. It now recognizes him as the “ruler” of his fleet--and everyone who steps onto one of his boats as one of his “subjects.” Thus, every member of his crew obeys his commands mechanically and to the letter; every member of his crew shares every one of his opinions; every member of his crew, when asked for their advice on the fleet’s navigational problems, will parrot back exactly what the Admiral already thinks--after all, they believe whatever he believes. Model citizens, all of them. Every. Last. One.
In a fleet free of dissent, the Admiral is staggeringly lonely.
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So basically, imagine sailing closer and closer to an IMMENSE armada of ships, and noticing that they’re sailing in extremely strict, almost geometrical formation...and then that all of the crew is dressed in literally *identical* uniforms (i.e. down to the last dirt smudge)...and then that all of their movements seem choreographed and mechanical, as if they’re all semi-intelligent golems operating on a single overarching program. Creepy stuff. Since the Admiral often captures “enemy ships,” both to loot them for food/supplies and to kidnap knowledgeable cartographers and sages (whom he believes can shed light on his navigational problems), there’s plenty of opportunity for him to capture seafaring PCs. Since the Orb of Allegiance affects everyone onboard the Admiral’s fleet, kidnapped characters are in serious mental danger from the minute they step onto one of his ships: over the course of one week, their willpower will gradually deteriorate until they either go insane or become one of the Admiral’s “model citizens.” It’s obviously best to escape before that point, but the fleet is always leagues away from dry land, and summoning the resolve to get off the boat becomes harder with each passing day...
Whadda you think? Any ideas? One thing I definitely need is a name for the Admiral--not knowing any Mandarin, inventing an appropriate one is tough.
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Let's say that before the Admiral was an admiral, he was a wizard and minor duke in a coastal region of Que, and often struggled in vain to heighten the reputation of and impose order upon his duchy--but he wasn't too charismatic or good at politicking, and his state was tiny and pretty fractious, so he didn't do too good a job of it. Enter the Orb of Allegiance, which he stumbled over by coincidence in a dusty archive. The Orb is effectively a citizenship-enforcing device: when a leader channels his focus through it, he can make a given person subscribe wholeheartedly to the political and social standards of his state. In the past, the Orb's power was put toward good ends (i.e. instantly rehabilitating felons), but was only to be used *carefully.* After all, it may not have been a mind control device, but it was darn close...
The duke was *not* as careful as he should have been: soon after discovering the Orb, he reasoned that if one unquestionably loyal subject was good, an entire nation of unquestionably loyal subjects was even better. Hoping to consolidate his authority once and for all, he unleashed the concentrated power of the Orb on the population of his entire state--intending not just to wipe out his citizens' desire to rebel and commit crimes, but to summarily rewrite *every single opinion they had* that differed from his. With the Orb's magic stretched to the limits of safety, the minds of the populace simply couldn't take the strain: most of the state's inhabitants suffered complete mental breakdowns, and the state ripped itself apart in fits of psychosis while the duke fled on his personal yacht, assuming darklordship over the sea in the process.
Since then, the Admiral has obtained a fleet and a commission from the Hua emperor, who visited him aboardship--though he doesn't know it, the imperial government awarded him the admiralship in order to get him out of the Empire's hair and prevent him from causing any more trouble domestically. The Admiral is acutely aware that since he fled his duchy he no longer has a state to rule, and aches to use the Orb of Allegiance on the population of some foreign territory; he is convinced that what happened in his homeland was a fluke, and that the next time he magically subjugates a territory everything will go according to plan. However since receiving his commission, he has never once made landfall: storms and navigational errors plague him wherever he travels, preventing him from reaching his destinations. To date, he doesn’t know why his voyages are perpetually unsuccessful, though he is obsessed with discovering the reason.
His crew provides little help on this subject. You see, the Admiral is unable to turn the Orb of Allegiance off. It now recognizes him as the “ruler” of his fleet--and everyone who steps onto one of his boats as one of his “subjects.” Thus, every member of his crew obeys his commands mechanically and to the letter; every member of his crew shares every one of his opinions; every member of his crew, when asked for their advice on the fleet’s navigational problems, will parrot back exactly what the Admiral already thinks--after all, they believe whatever he believes. Model citizens, all of them. Every. Last. One.
In a fleet free of dissent, the Admiral is staggeringly lonely.
-----------------
So basically, imagine sailing closer and closer to an IMMENSE armada of ships, and noticing that they’re sailing in extremely strict, almost geometrical formation...and then that all of the crew is dressed in literally *identical* uniforms (i.e. down to the last dirt smudge)...and then that all of their movements seem choreographed and mechanical, as if they’re all semi-intelligent golems operating on a single overarching program. Creepy stuff. Since the Admiral often captures “enemy ships,” both to loot them for food/supplies and to kidnap knowledgeable cartographers and sages (whom he believes can shed light on his navigational problems), there’s plenty of opportunity for him to capture seafaring PCs. Since the Orb of Allegiance affects everyone onboard the Admiral’s fleet, kidnapped characters are in serious mental danger from the minute they step onto one of his ships: over the course of one week, their willpower will gradually deteriorate until they either go insane or become one of the Admiral’s “model citizens.” It’s obviously best to escape before that point, but the fleet is always leagues away from dry land, and summoning the resolve to get off the boat becomes harder with each passing day...
Whadda you think? Any ideas? One thing I definitely need is a name for the Admiral--not knowing any Mandarin, inventing an appropriate one is tough.
Pretty sweet! 
Only problem I can see is that the admiral potentially succumbs to Baron Evensong syndrome. It would be an excellent encounter the first time round, but it doesnt feel like it has any replay value, since going near him is pretty much a sentance of eternal servitude.
What about if someone stole the orb several years ago and left the admiral with the crew he has but unable to create any more model citizens? This would then have him searching the seas for it but being unable to track down whoever has it by his own means. Thereby he is not only trapped at sea, but unable to find the very instrument of his potentially greatest triumph, and as time goes on his armada dwindles as the effects of the orb wear off....
He then actively searches for people who can help him, but doesnt have to reveal the nature of the the orb or why he wants it, obviously anyone who is useful enough to help him find the orb is a worthy addtion to the crew....
I admit this owes a bit to Davy Jones and his heart in PoC but just an idea.......
Good work though!
Only problem I can see is that the admiral potentially succumbs to Baron Evensong syndrome. It would be an excellent encounter the first time round, but it doesnt feel like it has any replay value, since going near him is pretty much a sentance of eternal servitude.
What about if someone stole the orb several years ago and left the admiral with the crew he has but unable to create any more model citizens? This would then have him searching the seas for it but being unable to track down whoever has it by his own means. Thereby he is not only trapped at sea, but unable to find the very instrument of his potentially greatest triumph, and as time goes on his armada dwindles as the effects of the orb wear off....
He then actively searches for people who can help him, but doesnt have to reveal the nature of the the orb or why he wants it, obviously anyone who is useful enough to help him find the orb is a worthy addtion to the crew....
I admit this owes a bit to Davy Jones and his heart in PoC but just an idea.......
Good work though!
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The Whistler
- Evil Genius
- Posts: 1454
- Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2007 7:38 pm
- Location: Southshore
Mmm...you have a point there; it does give him a lot more active motivation if he's missing the thing. Thing is, in that sort of situation, I don't want the Orb's influence to drop off *too* much over time, since the whole point of his curse is that *because* he has absolute mental control over his entire fleet, everyone's basically just an extension of his personality and he has no one to talk to. If the effects of the Orb dwindle, then sailors might start to respectfully dissent and that whole dynamic goes away.
There's a pretty easy way to solve that, though--what if, instead of the Orb's effects diminishing *gradually* across the entire fleet, once every so often, a single ship "snaps out of it" all at once and flees the armada as fast as they can? This shouldn't happen too frequently, since the armada is scarier if it's friggin' huge, but it should happen just enough to remind the Admiral that 1) he still doesn't have the Orb, and 2) there's a chance that, without its residual influence to help him out, *everyone* would desert him.
Wow, I like that even better. Thanks, lostboy!
There's a pretty easy way to solve that, though--what if, instead of the Orb's effects diminishing *gradually* across the entire fleet, once every so often, a single ship "snaps out of it" all at once and flees the armada as fast as they can? This shouldn't happen too frequently, since the armada is scarier if it's friggin' huge, but it should happen just enough to remind the Admiral that 1) he still doesn't have the Orb, and 2) there's a chance that, without its residual influence to help him out, *everyone* would desert him.
Wow, I like that even better. Thanks, lostboy!