Reckonings: The Overlook

[DeepShadow of FoS]

Because figments and glamers (see below) are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. They cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements. Consequently, these spells are useful for confounding or delaying foes, but useless for attacking them directly.

Therefore, all the characters on the ships should have plunged into the sea.

[Nathan of the FoS]

Because figments and glamers (see below) are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. They cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements. Consequently, these spells are useful for confounding or delaying foes, but useless for attacking them directly.

Therefore, all the characters on the ships should have plunged into the sea.

Eh? No, of course not. (Unless you mean the ghost ship, in which case, yes, I suppose so.) They're perceiving the ethereal resonance ship, but interacting with the material ship.

[Nathan of the FoS]

I realize this reading would make much of the last several weeks of interaction moot. I guess the thing to do is say that Harrin has super-phantom shift abilities than rise to the level of phantasm.

[Nathan of the FoS]

Just to mention the last thing I just remembered I wanted to say--phantom shift is described as an ability which makes ghost/human communication easier, and which has little combat applicability, supporting the "figment" interpretation even more fully. So I'm pretty sure the "standard" phantom shift should be read that way.

[DeepShadow of FoS]

Because figments and glamers (see below) are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. They cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements. Consequently, these spells are useful for confounding or delaying foes, but useless for attacking them directly.

Therefore, all the characters on the ships should have plunged into the sea.

Eh? No, of course not. (Unless you mean the ghost ship, in which case, yes, I suppose so.) They're perceiving the ethereal resonance ship, but interacting with the material ship.

But the spiritual door in the RL3E example stayed closed in the real world. Objects in the spirit realm have their own physical nature, otherwise they'd never have been able to touch the door handle.

I discussed this at length on the main page, asking for help in interpreting this very ambiguous power. Could you walk up a set of stairs in a phantom shift if the actual building was burned to the ground years before? You say no, I say yes.

I'd also point out that interaction with ER is based on charisma, not on a saving throw. Thus, I don't think ER is comparable to any kind of illusion spell. If it was, most of the epics would be very confused while the lower level characters acted wierd.

[DeepShadow of FoS]

I realize this reading would make much of the last several weeks of interaction moot. I guess the thing to do is say that Harrin has super-phantom shift abilities than rise to the level of phantasm.

Harrin does not have super-phantom shift. He has phantom shift, as I interpret it. If I've made a mistake in interpretation, I'm sorry, but I intend to be consistent; there are ways to use this ability against him, and there are even creatures with similar abilities that would be friendly to the PC's.

You can't stand on a phantasm, either. The description of phantom shift says that people cease to see or feel the world as it is, but instead experience the ER. I take that to mean that the real world loses its solidity.

[Nathan of the FoS]

Therefore, all the characters on the ships should have plunged into the sea.

Eh? No, of course not. (Unless you mean the ghost ship, in which case, yes, I suppose so.) They're perceiving the ethereal resonance ship, but interacting with the material ship.

But the spiritual door in the RL3E example stayed closed in the real world. Objects in the spirit realm have their own physical nature, otherwise they'd never have been able to touch the door handle.

That's true, although I seem to remember the party in question started in the Ethereal to begin with. (Not sure on that, though.)

I discussed this at length on the main page, asking for help in interpreting this very ambiguous power. Could you walk up a set of stairs in a phantom shift if the actual building was burned to the ground years before? You say no, I say yes.

You're right; the way this power is described is extremely puzzling. Your interpretation is (mostly) easier to use, I think, but I think mine is more consistent with the sum of indicators from the text.

I'd also point out that interaction with ER is based on charisma, not on a saving throw. Thus, I don't think ER is comparable to any kind of illusion spell. If it was, most of the epics would be very confused while the lower level characters acted wierd.

Well, but the epic/non-epic thing applies to a Cha system--Cortez, Ciera and Peregrine walk in and out of the ship at will, while the crewmen try it and hit a wall. (Not that this speaks to your point, I guess, but see continuation).

Also, I don't mean to say that Ethereal Resonance is a kind of illusion, only that the interaction of people with Ethereal Resonance might be described in similar terms to interaction with illusions. (A distinction without a difference, perhaps.)

All right! I give. Your interpretation is more functional, more atmospheric and overall better, although I will continue to say that my interpretation fits the letter of what is written at least as well. But, when it comes to ethereal resonance, one should go by the spirit of the law, no?

[Nathan of the FoS]

You can't stand on a phantasm, either. The description of phantom shift says that people cease to see or feel the world as it is, but instead experience the ER. I take that to mean that the real world loses its solidity.

How about, the phantom shift is something like shadow magic, but using ethereal stuff rather than shadowstuff? That seems to fit pretty well.

And I take the "see or feel" to refer to subjective perception, (figment/glamer/phantasm), but perhaps that's the neuroscientist in me.

[DeepShadow of FoS]

All right! I give. Your interpretation is more functional, more atmospheric and overall better, although I will continue to say that my interpretation fits the letter of what is written at least as well. But, when it comes to ethereal resonance, one should go by the spirit of the law, no?

Letter, spirit. *shrug* I'm divinely ordained. Whatever I do is right.

Seriously, I appreciate the attempt to help me fathom this strange ability. Any frustration in the previous posts is more directed at the lack of help I got way back when I was originally trying to understand it.

As I was saying, there are ways to turn this ability against Harrin. For one thing, unless he's actively trying to pass through an ER object, it's a potential ghost touch weapon...

[Nathan of the FoS]

All right! I give. Your interpretation is more functional, more atmospheric and overall better, although I will continue to say that my interpretation fits the letter of what is written at least as well. But, when it comes to ethereal resonance, one should go by the spirit of the law, no?

Letter, spirit. *shrug* I'm divinely ordained. Whatever I do is right.

Seriously, I appreciate the attempt to help me fathom this strange ability. Any frustration in the previous posts is more directed at the lack of help I got way back when I was originally trying to understand it.

Well...this will sound mighty silly considering the conversation we're having now, but I didn't want to queer the pitch by shoving my oar in with the DMing while playing in the campaign.

As I was saying, there are ways to turn this ability against Harrin. For one thing, unless he's actively trying to pass through an ER object, it's a potential ghost touch weapon...

How much thought does it take to go through a ER object while ethereal (or material and interacting with the ER), anyway?

[DeepShadow of FoS]

How about, the phantom shift is something like shadow magic, but using ethereal stuff rather than shadowstuff? That seems to fit pretty well.

Yeah, shadow magic is a good analogy.

And I take the "see or feel" to refer to subjective perception, (figment/glamer/phantasm), but perhaps that's the neuroscientist in me.

Perhaps. AFAIK, you can't feel figments or glamers, and phantasms are too subjective to be applicable as ER. OTOH, there are some other phantasms that are crucial to what's going on, and may yet save the group...

As to Shadross failing his MPS check, yeah, I had forgotten about that because I wanted to give the player the opportunity to roleplay being horrified rather than force it on him. Now I'm playing the character, but I can't stop wishing for a player. I rolled Revulsion, which would have Shadross run screaming from the scene instead of fight the troll, but with his men in danger I'm wondering if I should rule in favor of Rage...

[DeepShadow of FoS]

How much thought does it take to go through a ER object while ethereal (or material and interacting with the ER), anyway?

Since ghosts live physically in the ether AND since they live mentally inthe past, I say that they usually treat any ER as solid unless they are consciously trying to pass through it. Thus, solid is the "default" setting for any ghost, but changing that is a free action. You'd have to surprise Harrin in order to use this against him, OR...you'd have to find ER that's too strong for him to pass through.

[Nathan of the FoS]

How much thought does it take to go through a ER object while ethereal (or material and interacting with the ER), anyway?

Since ghosts live physically in the ether AND since they live mentally inthe past, I say that they usually treat any ER as solid unless they are consciously trying to pass through it. Thus, solid is the "default" setting for any ghost, but changing that is a free action. You'd have to surprise Harrin in order to use this against him, OR...you'd have to find ER that's too strong for him to pass through.

OR have Ciera get back to the Salt-Biter's ship and cast disintegrate on that chest that ties Harrin to this life.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

For what it's worth, I never chimed on the rules for phantom shift, not because I wasn't interested (I am) or didn't have the time (I don't), but mainly because I haven't the foggiest clue what to make of them. It seems to be a hopeless morass of DM fiat, although I admire your attempt to make it cohesive. I ran into similar issues when I tried to use something similar in my campaign. A town with ER so powerful that characters with Ethereal Empathy saw it as completely real, and even characters without EE could sometimes perceive it. (I guess you could consider it a big phantom shift, but the criteria for interaction was the EE skill*, not straight Cha). (*IMC I added a skill for characters with the EE feat to improve their ability by devoting ranks.)

Then of course my curious players had to test me with stuff like, "I see and feel a hole in the wall, but he sees and feels a solid wall. What if I hold his elbow and push his hand through the hole? What if he closes his eyes and we try it?"

And my personal favorite: "I take the shovel that no one else can see and dig a hole with it. Now I jump in the hole."

[The Giamarga]

It's really sad that this campaign dwindled. Any chance we will see the wrap up of it anytime soon, DS?