Timor Gazetteer

[Tobias Blackburn]

I would like to point out the fact that while we should consider in what ways the domain reflects the Lord, not EVERYTHING has to have this comparison.

No, but the things you expect to find there must have a common theme.

It seems that this idea is brought up a lot "How does this reflect the Queen?" Well, that's great for major stuff, and when the domain was initially formed, I'm sure that the majority did reflect the Queen. But Timor has been around for quite awhile, and things change.

True. That's the point of the Gazetters. For example, we're introducing the survivors of Timor and the remains of their city. Things are changing. That doesn't mean we have to tell people they will find dragons and draco-liches down there. If we add it, it needs to make sense. In all editions, the Queen has ruled the underground unhindered and I do not believe she would take large amounts of intelligent, ploting creatures for granted.

An example I could use, would be Mordent. Do Werepanthers reflect the theme of Mordent? Not really. But you're telling me that it wouldn't be possible for a Werepanther to have left Valachan to the south and migrated north? Of course it is. That's another thing that's great about 3E Ravenloft; the campaign setting started to consider the effects that surrounding domains have on an individual place. Made the place feel more cohesive and real.

These things can happen, but they are there by a DM's choice. Nothing prevents a DM from having a werepanther in Mordent, but the authors of the Mordentish gazetteer didn't add it to the domains possible monster list. If you want to have a Titan ruling the Pont-A-Museau, there's nothing to stop you, but the Gazetteers exist to map the place out and give it a feel and options, not to encompass all possible combinations of monsters and events. There is the potential for change in Timor, since Sodo is looking for a way to deal with the Hive Queen and the hatchling is out there. Shouldn't changes come for plot reasons and not just because?

The reason that I'm against other intelligent monsters is because they don't make sense when you consider the Hive Queen and the corruption effect. If a DM decides to put a Demilich down there, good for him. If he wants to throw in vast flights of shadow dragons, congratulations. But he has to explain how those creatures got there and why the Hive Queen picks at the surface when she faces those threats on her own home territory. If it's to "fund" her war against these other underground races we're removing her desire to make Paridon another Timor city and mucking up her

3e did a great job taking in how each domain reacts with the others around it. But they also spent quite sometime making sure that each domain was internally consistant with the theme of the domain, the darklord, and the history. If you can explain why we should populate Timor with drow, beholders, dragons and the like, I'll add them to the list, but you need to have a good explaination for why they are there and why the marikith are still the dominant species.

[Undead Cabbage]

I'm going to further support Tobias' opinion here. We shouldn't add intelligent races to Timor for a lot of the same reasons that we are keeping this gazetteer canon. DMs can add their own personal additions on their own. In the mean time, Timor needs to work as a baseline for everyone. The Marikiths are there for obvious reasons, and the calibans fit due to there being need of a sentient race as well as their concept fitting well with the atmosphere. Screwing around with the intended monsters and the intended atmosphere is like going away from canon: it's a personal decision. You're right, Mortavius, there's nothing stoppding a Werepanther from going into Mordent. It didn't however, state anything about werepanthers in Mordent because it didn't fit with Mordent's themes.

If we're writing about Timor, then lets keep it Timor, and make Timor different from other previously done ideas.

[Nathan of the FoS]

Allow me to sum up what I see as the emerging consensus:

1) The intelligent inhabitants of Timor will be limited to marikith and the calibans.

2) We'll finish adding texture to the possible encounters in Timor with aberrations and vermin of no more than animal intelligence.

3) "One strike and you're out"--that is, ANY action calling for a powers check results in transformation to a marikith--is too strict, but I don't think we've come up with a hard alternative.

Questions: Is Timor perfectly contiguous with Paridon, or are there places where the sewers are still part of Paridon?

Does Timor mirror/invert Paridon in its physical geography?

Random idea for new marikith types: Perhaps a marikith can induce hormonal changes in itself by eating other marikith, resulting in a more intelligent/strong/aberrant caste? This could conceivably keep numbers down and explain the generation of new types if everyone initially starts in the "hunter" caste.

[Tobias Blackburn]

Allow me to sum up what I see as the emerging consensus:

1) The intelligent inhabitants of Timor will be limited to marikith and the calibans.

2) We'll finish adding texture to the possible encounters in Timor with aberrations and vermin of no more than animal intelligence.

Yup.

3) "One strike and you're out"--that is, ANY action calling for a powers check results in transformation to a marikith--is too strict, but I don't think we've come up with a hard alternative.

I think the requirement for one failed power check (with the chance of failure rising daily) would be fair if the person transforms into an independant Marikith. This would echo the effect of old Timor and re-institute the Hive's rush to find the new marikith and bring him to the Queen for assimilation. This would also put the effect on par with Necropolis, possibly even lighter than the Shroud is.

Questions: Is Timor perfectly contiguous with Paridon, or are there places where the sewers are still part of Paridon?

Timor doesn't include any cellars in Paridon, but it does include all tunnels, including the sewers and coal mines.

Does Timor mirror/invert Paridon in its physical geography?

Not really. There are areas that have a reflection above, but the remains of Timor city that are scattered around the sewer. Timor city completely avoided urban sprawl, unlike Paridon, and while the tunnels are cramped and seemingly endless, the caverns with these ruins wouldn't be similar to the world above.

Random idea for new marikith types: Perhaps a marikith can induce hormonal changes in itself by eating other marikith, resulting in a more intelligent/strong/aberrant caste? This could conceivably keep numbers down and explain the generation of new types if everyone initially starts in the "hunter" caste.

Now that's an idea. But perhaps it also requires the Queen's "permission" in the form of some kind of Jelly. It takes a lot out of her to produce this jelly and depletes the Hive's size. She can have more powerful marikith, but she can't just churn them out. Another option is that she produces eggs from different castes at random. We do know that she has laid more than one Queen egg before so it isn't hard to imagine her laying other types.

[Undead Cabbage]

Questions: Is Timor perfectly contiguous with Paridon, or are there places where the sewers are still part of Paridon?

Timor doesn't include any cellars in Paridon, but it does include all tunnels, including the sewers and coal mines.

Coal Mines? Can't say I'm one for those. Coal mines are more of a Nosos thing. Paridon would probably get its coal from there (along with other natural resources, and Malus is constantly stripping his realm of them).

Where does the line break between Paridon and Timor? That border might change every day. Although in certain areas, such as the Bowels, entering a manhole means your now technically in Timor.

[Tobias Blackburn]

Questions: Is Timor perfectly contiguous with Paridon, or are there places where the sewers are still part of Paridon?

Timor doesn't include any cellars in Paridon, but it does include all tunnels, including the sewers and coal mines.

Coal Mines? Can't say I'm one for those. Coal mines are more of a Nosos thing. Paridon would probably get its coal from there (along with other natural resources, and Malus is constantly stripping his realm of them).

Shadow of the Knife says that there are coal mines.

Where does the line break between Paridon and Timor? That border might change every day. Although in certain areas, such as the Bowels, entering a manhole means your now technically in Timor.

I think that the border should be constant and at street level. Enter the sewers anywhere and you enter Timor.

[Stygian Inquirer]

Someone has probably mentioned this but what has been decided about the nasty effect Timor has on it's inhabitants by forcing them to feed on fear instead of food and drink (introduced in Islands of Terror)?

[William Blackmoor]

Shadow of the Knife says that there are coal mines.

although I like SotK, remember that it's still an unofficial adventure. Coal mines just like the open border to Timor were never real canon material.

Quote:
Where does the line break between Paridon and Timor? That border might change every day. Although in certain areas, such as the Bowels, entering a manhole means your now technically in Timor.


I think that the border should be constant and at street level. Enter the sewers anywhere and you enter Timor.

I think Paridon should have it's share of tunnels, catacombs, deep basements and even sewers (maybe old one's that are unconnected to the general sewers?) that doesn' t belong to Timor. I dislike Timor and would like to have the option of an marikith free enviroment if i need one for an adventure.
PC's: "Look the criminal fled into the sewers"- "Adventure is over gents, the marikith will probably take care of him and I don't want to join him."
DM:

[Tobias Blackburn]

Someone has probably mentioned this but what has been decided about the nasty effect Timor has on it's inhabitants by forcing them to feed on fear instead of food and drink (introduced in Islands of Terror)?

That wasn't the effect. The effect was that causing terror caused you to transform into a monster. It has progressed since then.

[Tobias Blackburn]

Shadow of the Knife says that there are coal mines.

although I like SotK, remember that it's still an unofficial adventure. Coal mines just like the open border to Timor were never real canon material.

Except that the authors of the 3e setting obviously included the events of the adventure when designing the dynamic and history of Zherisia. Unless there was ANOTHER golem pretending to be Bloody Jack that somehow involved the Divinity of Mankind in a way that would make Sodo want to slaughter them.

I'd usually agree with the unofficial part, but when the people that wrote it got to write the setting as well...

Quote:
Where does the line break between Paridon and Timor? That border might change every day. Although in certain areas, such as the Bowels, entering a manhole means your now technically in Timor.


I think that the border should be constant and at street level. Enter the sewers anywhere and you enter Timor.

I think Paridon should have it's share of tunnels, catacombs, deep basements and even sewers (maybe old one's that are unconnected to the general sewers?) that doesn' t belong to Timor. I dislike Timor and would like to have the option of an marikith free enviroment if i need one for an adventure.
PC's: "Look the criminal fled into the sewers"- "Adventure is over gents, the marikith will probably take care of him and I don't want to join him."
DM:

If you look at Van Richten's Arsenal you'll notice that Clairmont doesn't mention the Marikith. At all. People do not know that they exist, likely because the Doppelgangers are covering their existance up to keep the population calm (and more manipulatable). There's only so many times you can have an opponent in the sewers anyway, and if your PC's won't go down to chase a criminal, make them go down to save a friend.

Shoving Timor further down only has the effect of making the conflict between the Hive Queen and Sodo less likely. Allowing Sodo to close the border to Timor would be a bad idea because he is the type of character to simply close it and leave it closed, let the city starve and then rebuild on whoever is left.

You don't want to use marikith in Timor, then don't. Timor is a HUGE place and the marikith can't be everwhere at once. We're even including reasons that they don't go into certain areas if you feel that you need that excuse, but simply saying "I don't like it, let's get rid of it" doesn't cut it.

Besides, Domains of Dread, 3e/3.5 Ravenloft, and Shadows of the Knife all say that Timor is part of Paridon's sewers. Sodo wouldn't have had to leave his lair if the underground still belonged to him.

[Undead Cabbage]

On the note of Coal mines, I'm going to include them as being part of the Riverside factories. I might make it that since the past 9 years or so, the coal mines have been abandoned (good spot for either a dread possibility, dread lore, or an ubran legend). Anyone see any problems with this?

Except that the authors of the 3e setting obviously included the events of the adventure when designing the dynamic and history of Zherisia. Unless there was ANOTHER golem pretending to be Bloody Jack that somehow involved the Divinity of Mankind in a way that would make Sodo want to slaughter them.

On this note, think this would instead be a better place for that 'Luddite' class I made? It's really about time that Ravenloft got an anti-construct class, and really the divinity of mankind would be the best anti-construct religion (as the morninglord is for vamps, belenus for shadow fey). I'll see if I can tailor it more to the divinity of mankind.

If you look at Van Richten's Arsenal you'll notice that Clairmont doesn't mention the Marikith. At all. People do not know that they exist, likely because the Doppelgangers are covering their existance up to keep the population calm (and more manipulatable). There's only so many times you can have an opponent in the sewers anyway, and if your PC's won't go down to chase a criminal, make them go down to save a friend.

You'll note I included in my text in the Bowels that entry into the sewers is prohibited by law, and that no one knows why this law exists. Marikiths, along with dopplegangers, should not be common knowledge. The 'golem crisis' is what should cover up any information released in previous canon adventures. This would create...oh wait for it...paranoia in the streets towards machinery. I was also thinking that maybe the Half-Vistani population in Southshore might recieve some blame for the Bloody Jack crimes to (the shrouded way would likely be in southshore district).

Continuing on about this 'golem crisis', I originally wanted to have an 'Ethan Ludd' charater that was fueling the movement. Originally I pictured Ethan Ludd as an 'invisible man' character who used to be an alchemical philosopher. Instead, maybe Ethan Ludd is an alias that Sodo uses to direct attention away from doppleganger movements. Keep in mind that Ethan Ludd himself always wears bandages, a hat, and shades to cover an 'accident' in his youth. We might also change the figure's name to make it less like the historical figure.

[Jester of the FoS]

Someone has probably mentioned this but what has been decided about the nasty effect Timor has on it's inhabitants by forcing them to feed on fear instead of food and drink (introduced in Islands of Terror)?

That wasn't the effect. The effect was that causing terror caused you to transform into a monster. It has progressed since then.

Well, fear feeding the inhabitants was introduced in Islands of Terror where Timor was created. It's status is unresolved since then.
I'm for it, or at least fear acting as suplemental food as it leads to a more diverse ecology (less food needed when ya have fright).

And while Shadow of the Knife IS unofficial, it's pretty damn close to canon (being referenced in VanRichten's Arsenal and all. For anything we're doing we can consider it canon.

Just a note on other monsters in the domain:we don't have to mention them by name. Typical monsters listed should be the common ones. Slimes, molds, fungi, unintelligent or scavangers, marikith, some undead, aligators and other animals, etc. However, we can suggest that other things dwell in the dark, set the stage for a 'unique' threat or two (cue the beholder). We leave some little places open and allow DMs to fill the void. Even with drow.

[Undead Cabbage]

Here's an idea.

How about some mention that Timor might actually go deeper and farther out than Paridon? This brings up speculation of other speices coming from other places. However I shudder at the idea of Drow in Timor, its also important to leave room for GM creativity (even if it's with drow). Having Timor stretch impossibly deep and far, possibily into the core, allows the GM to do what he wants about dungeon encounters. Who knows, some GM's might even interpret Timor has having a mist way with the Shadow Rift. As David said, a void is the best way to go.

But in the mean time, the monsters that are listed in Timor should fit with the style and themes.

[Mortavius]

Perhaps Timor doesn't "stretch" persay to other domains, but it has connections to other lands? Sort of Mist Ways?

This would be an awesome incentive to go down there; if Sodo can't close the border between Timor & Paridon, but he closes the other ones, and you're trying to escape Sodo, you have the chance of entering Timor, facing the Marikith, and finding one of these "exits" to another domain...assuming the Hive Queen doesn't close her borders...

As a note, when I said that things don't have to necessarily reflect the Lord, I wasn't implying that we should throw Dracoliches and Beholders into Timor, I was just saying that we don't need to conisder that question when we're deciding whether or not Violet Fungus exists in Timor. It just seemed that question "How does this reflect the Lord?" was coming up a LOT and I wanted to remind everyone that not everything does reflect the lord, especially with how long Timor has been around.

[Jasper]

Off the top of my head i think the eccology should be similer to this:

Rats- Both normal (swarm), giant and tentacle

Insects- Large to giant size, Assassin beatles, scarabs etc:

Bats- All types

Spiders- All normal types (No phase spiders, sword spiders etc: )

Ooze/slimes- All types

Sentient plants- Shriekers, fungus men, carnivorus pants etc:

Snakes- Blind cave dweling type

Water based creatures- The tunnels must have hit a few underground lakes and the like leading to Giant blind toads and poisonus eel like creatures.

Elementals- Rare but possable

Undead- Mostly ghosts and skeletons, all flesh is either eaten by the queen or turned into another marikith.