Timor Gazetteer

[Tobias Blackburn]

Couple of replies:

First off, about the alien theme, when I say alien, I don't mean the movie, "Alien(s)" but the general theme of alienism. Much like Lovecraft's alien influences. The Marikith are not like other creatures, and we should emphasize this in portraying them.

We need to remember that Ravenloft is supposed to have a place for every type of horror. Blutspur covers Lovecraftian horror. Timor can have parallels, but we can't just make it Blutspur with Marikith.

Secondly, I stand with David on the idea that a single bad act should not spell instant doom for the character. Darkon steals memories, but over a period of months. I don't recall how long the Wildlands destroys items, but I'm sure it's not a case of them walking across the border and their stuff breaks.

I like the idea of a Path of Marikith, or at least more of a chance for the PC. It should not be an instant death effect. And letting it become a case of DM adjucation is too nebulous. What do you say, "Well, if you think the PC's do something bad, then punish them by taking away a character?" There should be a set of defined rules (like those for Powers Checks) and the PC's should have a chance to escape it. The Dark Powers are fickle; sometimes those who commit a single deed spiral into darkness and others who spend a lifetime commiting evil are untouched. Such is the mysterious nature of the Dark Powers.

How long does it take for a character to complete a path of darkness? If you make it a Path you are completely removing the corrupting effect of Timor and it becomes just another domain.

The important thing to remember is the consequences of the action. A PC does something evil, whether knowingly or not, and he loses his PC. Is this fair in the context of the game? Is this fun for the PC? Would you be happy if this happened to you? It's easy for us to stand up on our high DM's spots, but in reality it's different down in the game when you're taking away a treasured PC.

Is it fair for a PC to have his character corrupted for doing something evil? Is it alright for them to get a curse because they did something they can do in every other RPG out there? Is it fun for them to lose their character just because a dice roll went wrong? Should a character who hates werebeasts become one when they fail their save if the character doesn't want to play that? It's a slippery slope.

Timor isn't the average domain, and it has less chances to make power checks than most others (even the Wildlands). Besides, the non-marikith population of Timor is very low and rather goodly. They'd warn the PC's about the corruptive effects. If they commit something worth a Dark Power check before they meet the Remnents they'll notice that something is wrong as they begin to transform.

How about adding the following:
-The transformation takes a flat 6 hours.
-The application of a remove curse adds another hour to the limit for every two levels of the caster.
-It only claims those who perform the kind of acts I described above.
-If a transforming character leaves the domain before the time is up the character reverts back to normal (say at one day for every hour in the sewer since the change began).

There, it keeps the corruptive influence of the domain but gives characters a way out.

The only other option is increasing power check failure by 30 - 60% while in Timor.

[Jester of the FoS]

Secondly, I stand with David on the idea that a single bad act should not spell instant doom for the character. Darkon steals memories, but over a period of months. I don't recall how long the Wildlands destroys items, but I'm sure it's not a case of them walking across the border and their stuff breaks.

I like the idea of a Path of Marikith, or at least more of a chance for the PC. It should not be an instant death effect. And letting it become a case of DM adjucation is too nebulous. What do you say, "Well, if you think the PC's do something bad, then punish them by taking away a character?" There should be a set of defined rules (like those for Powers Checks) and the PC's should have a chance to escape it. The Dark Powers are fickle; sometimes those who commit a single deed spiral into darkness and others who spend a lifetime commiting evil are untouched. Such is the mysterious nature of the Dark Powers.

How long does it take for a character to complete a path of darkness? If you make it a Path you are completely removing the corrupting effect of Timor and it becomes just another domain.

A while yes, but while on that Path of Darkness the person would be subject to the Marikith Queen's domination and, if controlled, would likely fail further checks.

The important thing to remember is the consequences of the action. A PC does something evil, whether knowingly or not, and he loses his PC. Is this fair in the context of the game? Is this fun for the PC? Would you be happy if this happened to you? It's easy for us to stand up on our high DM's spots, but in reality it's different down in the game when you're taking away a treasured PC.

Is it fair for a PC to have his character corrupted for doing something evil? Is it alright for them to get a curse because they did something they can do in every other RPG out there? Is it fun for them to lose their character just because a dice roll went wrong? Should a character who hates werebeasts become one when they fail their save if the character doesn't want to play that? It's a slippery slope.

Timor isn't the average domain, and it has less chances to make power checks than most others (even the Wildlands). Besides, the non-marikith population of Timor is very low and rather goodly. They'd warn the PC's about the corruptive effects. If they commit something worth a Dark Power check before they meet the Remnents they'll notice that something is wrong as they begin to transform.

Corruption for evil and curses are balanced mechanics and a hazard of playing the setting. There is multiple failures allowed and ussually an escape clause or method of redemtion. Curses are actually encouraged to have them.
It's no fun to lose a character because you rolled a "1", but it's even worse to lose one for something you didn't even get a chance to roll for!
This is broken. It's like adding a poison to Borca that you can't make a Fortitude save for. Or an escape-proof trap. Things like this should never, ever been thrown out casually and only used in specific situations.

How about adding the following:
-The transformation takes a flat 6 hours.
-The application of a remove curse adds another hour to the limit for every two levels of the caster.
-It only claims those who perform the kind of acts I described above.
-If a transforming character leaves the domain before the time is up the character reverts back to normal (say at one day for every hour in the sewer since the change began).

There, it keeps the corruptive influence of the domain but gives characters a way out.

What deeds are those again? The only reference in SotK is "deeds worthy of a Powers Check" which includes just minor things as lying.
And the "ways out" only really work if the person knows somthing is happening and what and knows the 'escape clause'. After which you need a 9th level spell to reverse things.

The only other option is increasing power check failure by 30 - 60% while in Timor.

Why? Why must it be so hard? Does it really need to be impossible for ANYTHING to spend any time in Timor? We're supposed to be making the domain more interesting and usefull, not less!

In second edition, where the corruptive effect was first mentioned, the save was versus spell. A straight roll, no negatives or penalties. Sure, the numbers to beat varies between 16 and 10, but this was for low-level characters and the average being 12-13. That's 60-65% MAX. And with the further restiction on it only affecting actions that inspire fear. Remember though, this was in 2nd Edition where half the fun for DMs was killing the party and dungeon crawls were the norm. This is hardly something I'd like to replicate.

The Secrets of the Knife rules were simply crap, quickly turned out unbalanced rules for a hastily finished adventure that needed to be out before the site closed. They couldn't afford to spend the time and space we have to make the rules workable and the domain functional.

[Mortavius]

David I couldn't agree more. I'm totally in favor of evil beings turning into Marikith, but I just don't think it should be so final, and so un-escapable. Redemption, however difficult, should be possible in *almost* all situations. That's part of gothic horror, the idea of travelling into the darkness and turning back at the last possible moment. For PC's who commit an evil act and then immediately become Marikith (even over a short period of time) that chance of redemption is almost completely gone.

I'm not necessarily saying that we should have a Path of the Marikith idea either, that might take too long. But I also think the proposed solutions so far are too heavy-handed and don't allow chance for escape. Perhaps a system of two powers checks? The first failure would initiate a mental link with the Hive Queen, prompting a Madness check and alerting the PC to the fact that something is very wrong. Then, if the PC persists, they become a Marikith in short order.

I'm just totally against the idea of "You've been bad, so you lose your character." Even the system of Powers Checks in place in the rest of Ravenloft isn't that heavy-handed.

[Tobias Blackburn]

I mentioned the idea of having the corruption on target those that act selfishly, violently against the group, or somehow betray the "community". A lie that would not have bad consequences would not count.

And while it is in the rules I have yet to meet a DM who punishes players by rolling a Power check everytime they want to use Bluff or Intimidate. That is broken too since it punishes characters for using skills that everyone else in the land can use without worrying. Do you automatically roll a Dark Powers check if the cleric doesn't mention he prays at a certain time, even if they're in combat or hunting a monster?

How long are players going to stay in Timor? Spares ecology, very few allies, monsters constantly hunting them... Would you say that they're going to stay down in the dark long enough to fill out an entire six point path of darkness. That's doutbful and ignores the way that Timor has always been harsher on power checks than any other domain. How often does a character fill out all six checks on one adventure.

We can't add a mental link to the Queen because it would stop the moment they're out of Timor. The mental "warning link" is going to be unnecessary since the player is going to notice as their skin turns black, their bones loosen up, their eyes began to glow red and they start to develop CLAWS! If that isn't fair warning that something is wrong I don't know what is!

Timor's effect is canon, whether it is broken or not. Turning it into your average power check path breaks canon by removing an effect that is special to one domain. What we have to do is find a way to lighten it without changing it completely, which is why I suggested remove curse to lengthen the time they have before the change. Why can we completely toss this out the window when it was in a canon adventure but can't explain away Sodo's inability to close the sewer as being a once every 13 years thing. At least the Sodo explaination would be closer with canon than what you're suggesting.

Timor has very limited situations in which a character can perform a power check and a betrayal down there would be very deadly to the group. It is an environment in which you work together to survive and stickly punishes those that don't get that. If a player betrays the group down in Timor it is likely his own party will want to kill him, so he's likely to lose the character anyway.

As broken as the mechanic is, the basic idea is any action worth a dark powers check. We cannot remove the mechanic or change it completely because that would be ignoring canon. That is why we can work from within to change it, while remembering that the chances of having to make a check in the first place are extremely low in this domain. There isn't that much to torture and the only people you could would likely make the act one of Ultimate Darkness.

Why don't we make the corruption effect a dread possibility. It existed in old Timor and may or may not (depending on the DM's whim) exist in this Timor. The Remnents still believe that actions corrupt you and the Marikith Queen stings those she kidnaps, which means we're going to have a hell of a job explaining why she goes after doppelgangers and jackelweres instead of anyone she can snatch of the street (another thread of Canon).

[Tobias Blackburn]

I'm just totally against the idea of "You've been bad, so you lose your character." Even the system of Powers Checks in place in the rest of Ravenloft isn't that heavy-handed.

No, but the borders are.

You betrayed your allies and now have six hours to get out before you lose your character is about on par with the "You're crossing the border and now you die without warning" effect of Borca, and the cross and die effects of Darkon, Richemulot, Hazlan, Barovia, etc, etc.

[Mortavius]

Well, *some* borders are that deadly. Some, like Falkovnia, can be bypassed if one is strong or clever enough.

Why can't we just have a system, where if a PC *fails* a Powers Check while within the domain, they start to transform into a Marikith? No increased chance of failure, but the punishment is the same. After all, evil done in Timor isn't any "eviler" than an evil deed performed in Necropolis, or other very dangerous situation (which can appear in any domain, really).

[Undead Cabbage]

Would this perhaps depend on your location in Timor?

Part of the Marikith queen's curse involves in her surrounding becoming twisted. Maybe one only starts turning into a Marikith when they are in a certain proximity of the Queen. Thus, the Queen corrupting everything around her.

When we're talking about PCs turning people into Marikiths, are we refering to how in the Denizens of Dread they said 'rumor was...etc. etc.'. In this case, we aren't officially bound to anything, as its simply hinted, not stated. Is there somewhere that states it outright?

BTW, rumors about powers checks?

"Hey Jim, how ya doing"

"Ah, could be better. The Dark Powers caught me lying to someone though. Now I get +2 on my bluff checks, but I can't seem to get over this green skin"

"Damn, well, just count yourself lucky you weren't in a sewer when it happened"

[Tobias Blackburn]

Well, *some* borders are that deadly. Some, like Falkovnia, can be bypassed if one is strong or clever enough.

Falkovnia's inability to raise a border at all has no effect on Vechor's ability to raise a border. Mordent's lack of a memory altering effect doesn't mean a thing to Darkon. And some domains don't have any extra punishments just for being there. Timor is one of those domains that do.

Why can't we just have a system, where if a PC *fails* a Powers Check while within the domain, they start to transform into a Marikith? No increased chance of failure, but the punishment is the same. After all, evil done in Timor isn't any "eviler" than an evil deed performed in Necropolis, or other very dangerous situation (which can appear in any domain, really).

It still lacks the feel that has been there the entire time.

How about this: If you fail a Power check, you turn into a marikith in 1d6 hours, no save, no cure but getting out of the domain before it happens. However, the chance of failing a Dark Power check increases by 1% for every day you spend in Timor as the darkness of the domain gets used to your precense. So a character who spends a week in Timor adds 7% to their dark power check, while one who has been there for over a year automatically fails their check and transforms. This gives the character a time limit before automatic failure longer than Darkon's and actually demands that the character do something before they are lost (unlike the memory drain which is automatic).

Also, I have added an explaination for the transformations that Timor induces into the history (it involves a city being built, a pact with a wizard in return for his services, and the transformation of the Marikith Queen). It makes it possible to include an escape clause similar to Darkon's.

[Tobias Blackburn]

Would this perhaps depend on your location in Timor?

Part of the Marikith queen's curse involves in her surrounding becoming twisted. Maybe one only starts turning into a Marikith when they are in a certain proximity of the Queen. Thus, the Queen corrupting everything around her.

The change never had any connection to the Queen in particular, except that transformations in old Timor made only a physcial change. Unfortunately, both sides became aware of the transformation and sent out troops to fetch the recruit or kill it. The Queen would swallow the new marikith and "lay him" a week later as a complete convert to the hive. The doppelgangers would perform a blood rite.

When we're talking about PCs turning people into Marikiths, are we refering to how in the Denizens of Dread they said 'rumor was...etc. etc.'. In this case, we aren't officially bound to anything, as its simply hinted, not stated. Is there somewhere that states it outright?

No, it was included as a fact of old Timor, as well as an existing effect in Shadow of the Knife.

BTW, rumors about powers checks?

"Hey Jim, how ya doing"

"Ah, could be better. The Dark Powers caught me lying to someone though. Now I get +2 on my bluff checks, but I can't seem to get over this green skin"

"Damn, well, just count yourself lucky you weren't in a sewer when it happened"

The sad part is that he only told his wife that the dress didn't make her look fat.

[Jasper]

I know its wildly outside of cannon but could we make the change only happen to those who have been delt damage to by a Marikith in the past. Even a simple 1 hp scratch could "infect" the PC with the Marikith taint. From then on when ever that person fails a power check the infection takes over turning them into monsters.

With the Marikith's ability to hide in shadows and the ability to crawl up drain pipes a good number of people could find themselves bitten or sratched keeping up the fear of changing but without the overwhelimg "I told my friends I'm 29 when im actully 32 now im becoming a monster" changes.

[Tobias Blackburn]

I know its wildly outside of cannon but could we make the change only happen to those who have been delt damage to by a Marikith in the past. Even a simple 1 hp scratch could "infect" the PC with the Marikith taint. From then on when ever that person fails a power check the infection takes over turning them into monsters.

Unfortunately, that completely ignores the canon so we can't do that.

With the Marikith's ability to hide in shadows and the ability to crawl up drain pipes a good number of people could find themselves bitten or sratched keeping up the fear of changing but without the overwhelimg "I told my friends I'm 29 when im actully 32 now im becoming a monster" changes.

I'm getting very curious how many DM's are actually that strick with power checks. After all, it is already possible to become a Darklord by telling someone you got up at nine am when you woke up at 9:01.

EDIT: Mortavius, acts in Timor aren't any more evil than elsewhere but the domain itself is more sensitive to them. The reason for this is tied to the very event that created the Hive Queen and created the Secret War the domain suffered under before its connection to Paridon. At the same time, betrayals under Timor can be more dangerous than those that happen in places like Paridon, Mordent, or even Verbrek.

Another option I would suggest (in addition to the gradually rising power checks or without them) comes from old Timor. In that city newly transformed monsters were independant until they were taken in by their side and indoctrinated. The Doppelgangers used a blood ritual, while the Hive Queen would swallow the victim and "lay" him later as a fully integrated member of the Hive. Perhaps a changed character is still independant until they are dragged back to the Queen.

[Undead Cabbage]

I'm getting very curious how many DM's are actually that strick with power checks. After all, it is already possible to become a Darklord by telling someone you got up at nine am when you woke up at 9:01.

I'll go ahead and admit that I use a tailored version of Powers checks, so as to eliminate the bathos of getting away with drastic crimes, and yet getting screwed by petty things. However, this is a separate topic.

If its canon to the adventures then our hands are tied behind our backs. This is one of those cases where the canon material can be stated, but really everyone would probably change it (sort of like renaissance weapons). One idea might be to list an alternative method (as per a non-psionic brain). This way we have our cake and eat it to.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

FWIW, I'm less worried about "petty" Powers Check violations' effects -- which, BTW, does not include little white lies; if you read the RLPH explanation, a lie actually has to be hurtful in its intentions or consequences to warrant a check -- than about how arbitrary such a change into marikith-form actually is. It may be a scary thing to happen to your PC, but it's not really distinctive of Timor as a domain, that EVERY act that warrants a Powers Check -- even misdeeds that haven't got a bloody thing to do with fear, the marikith, or the Marikith Queen's specific offenses -- should all be equally punished by the domain's ambient curse. It's much better if it only applies to crimes that in some way reflect the nature or sins of the villain involved.

If Barovia were subject to a comparable effect, would it be more dramatic if everybody who committed an immoral act there -- say, mugging a random traveler for his money pouch -- would automatically be turned into a vampire-spawn? Or would it reflect that domain's theme better, if one's misdeed had to involve blood, jealousy, or harm to one's own family? Domains' environmental hazards should reflect their specific darklords' personality and history, not just "generic Ravenloft" qualities of the setting as a whole, like the complete grab-bag roster of potential Powers Checks.

Besides, having every PCh-inducing offense invariably invoke the offender's transformation -- no exceptions, no reprieve -- might potentially endanger the (intentional) ambiguity the game-setting maintains, as to just what the Dark Powers' moral standards are! Part of what makes the DPs' judgements scary, as the RLDMG correctly points out, is that in-character, nobody knows just which acts might earn them a smackdown from the mysterious forces that dominate the Land of Mists! If someone who wants to determine exactly what does, or does not, invoke a Powers Check -- and I can certainly think of at least one group of "self-serving human vipers", who'd love to find out! -- needs only to coax someone of an evil inclination into Timor, then observe what offenses they commit there and when they start to transform, that'd be getting dangerously close to letting the characters within the setting peek "behind the curtain" and look at the game-rules.

[Tobias Blackburn]

You make some good point Rotipher. That's why I am incuding a reasoning for the transformations that go beyond "The Dark Powers" (though they are likely responsible for aiding it along). Here's a hint: A Queen is building the most beautiful city in the world and needs to scare her subjects back into line. She makes a pact with a wizard in order to do this. What does the wizard get out of it?

The mechanic of Timor does equate with the Darklord and the nature of the domain itself (since I'm trying to move it away from dark, lovecraftian tunnels in order to prevent too much overlap with Blutspur). Remeber, the wizard who turned her into a Marikith Queen justified his action as making her "outside as beautiful as her inside", which was a theme the domain then followed. We can require one failed power check and having the chances of a failure increase automatically overtime, or have an automatic transformation for any sort of harmful betrayal, whether it is a malicious lie, stealing food from companions, or abandoning those in need. Personally, I think that the automatic transformation for betrayal makes the most sense, since the Queen herself was transformed while betraying her mother and for her betrayal of the Wizard.

[Jester of the FoS]

Okay, my Internet was down yesterday so I'm late in replying. This will be my final post on the subject as this discussion has run its course and is threatening to become less of a discussion and more of an argument (which is really not fair to Tobias who is making some excellent points but is simply outgunned as everyone is on the other side, and arguments like that always seem like persecution).

Okay, rant aside:

* I concede that a Path, while cool, would take too long. I rescind my idea to include it as a sidebar.

* Power checks are still the best method, but we should restrict them to acts that cause fear. That works with the theme of the domain.
You NEED to be able to roll. Having a time limit doesn't help. It simply does not. It could be six hours or sixteen, there still HAS to be a random chance for success or failure. Otherwise we're introducing a rule that requires DM adjunction. For good DMs who work with their players this is not a problem, but for good DMs you really need a rule book the size of a pamphlet. You make rules for bad DMs to keep them honest and things fair.

* One to Six hours. That's really great if you're lost, cut off and under constant combat. I don't know about you, but one of the first things I'd do in a Timor exploration is disorientate the players and have them become mislead. Adding a time-limit where they have to be out or they LOSE THEY CHARACTER is cruel. Especially when there's a very good chance the character is under the mental domination of the Marikith Queen and very likely UNWILLING to leave.
And as poor taste as it is killing a character without even a save, it is even worse punishing them with something requiring a rare 9th level spell whose outcome is often twisted to even have a chance to restore the character.

* I really, really like the two Power Checks idea: where one failure leaves you open to domination and a partial transformation while the second finishes the transformation. Especially when you factor in the mental domination, you're essentially a puppet and very open to betraying your friends/party (which works with the theme of betrayal and leads to other power checks).
We could even add options, things that do not warrant a check traditionally but cause fear and require one in Timor. These are things we can do since we have the space and SotK didn't.

* Why would the mental domination end when you leave the domain? Sure, you would be unable to receive new commands, but old ones might still remain. A second chance at rolling the save should be granted, but this should not be automatic either.
Heh, imagine the queen having semi-dominated spies throughout Paridon. Sewer workers, explorers and treasure hunters all told to "Act normal but find out what you can about doppelgangers and return to the tunnels in a week." That's a sidebar right there!

* Interestingly, as canon and "important to the theme" as this Fear Effect is, there is NO mention of it in Domains of Dread. None. The only other mention before the half-assed filler rule in Shadow of the Knife was the very outdated rule in Islands of Terror.
Since we're expanding on what was written in SotK and not merely reiterating the 3-4 pages written on Timor I don't really have many qualms about altering the rules.


Okay. Done. No more from me on this.
Now onto the next angry argument... er... discussion.
Ravenloftian Underdark.

Why can't Timor be one?
What's so bad about the Underdark?

Now, obviously giant and labyrinthic tunnel complexes stretching down beyond logic with room after room filled with traps, monsters and functionless rooms are bad ideas. But that doesn't mean the entire idea of dungeon crawls are bad. Ravenloft was founded on them! I6/ House of Strahd. Dungeon crawl. From the Shadows. Dungeon Crawl. Hell, most of the adventures feature some manner of manor or castle or crypt that is essentially a dungeon crawl. Dungeons and Dragons itself was founded on dungeon crawls, it's not only in the title but most of the original play-testing was Gygax's group wandering deeper and deeper into the ruins of Greyhawk.
Now, DCs are not everyone's cup of tea. I find them boring at times, especially when they become nothing but hack-n-slash, kick in the door snooze fests. But some people like them and who am I to judge their tastes?
And the reason they're overlooked in Ravenloft so often is that it's hard to have massive dungeon complexes in a more fairy-tale/realism based world. They're simply not made. Only so many 'haunted mines' and 'cursed mansions' before people roll their eyes.
Sure Bluetspur can be used but that's slightly more traditional and high-level. This is simple and much easier for low and mid-level characters (and situated near enough to civilization).

So why not take advantage of what Timor is? I'm not saying it has to be some silly and massive subterranean dungeon filled with dozens of races and cities, but it could be filled with several small villages of poor humans and escaped calibans as well as assorted undead, scavengers and other creatures. It could be another Darkon, a bridge between one style of world and gameplay with the more traditional 'Loft style.

Timor can be so much more than just a giant nest of Marikith to be picked off one group at a time.

As for separating and differentiating Timor from Bluetspur, I lean back to an old suggestion of mine: continual reminders of humanity and the fallen city of Timor. Sinkholes, sewer, 'flushed' items, inhabited and abandoned human villages, bits of the city, etc. While the Flayer tunnels are inhuman and alien and beyond sanity, these are simply places humanity lost, places that reject humanity, places humankind no longer rules. Bluetspur is and always was inhuman whereas Timor is recognizably human, it was human, but it just is not anymore.