Paridon Gazetteer

[Lord Cyclohexane]

My vote: 751 BC for discovery, so 4 years to develop trade deals before SotK starts (might require extra time due to no strong central Darkonese government, so have to start deals with individual Darkonese territories). Anyone else?

...no strong central government?...Azalin will be interested to hear that, I'm sure...

I doubt that. Azalin writes about it himself, that his beloved Darkon had gone to pot without him present. (Remember, in 751, Azalin is "dead" and Death appears to be a pretty absent ruler) GazII also makes it pretty clear that the government of Darkon is decentralized in Azalin's absence and hints that there might have been conflicts between the different baronies within the Kingdom of Darkon. It's pretty easy to assume that any and all trade deals with Paridon would be with individual baronies in Darkon and not with Death's administration.

I'm not sure that the failure to mention trade in Paridon in 742 should be considered a hard limit; why not assume that trade was going on before that time, but that it wasn't an important plot element of HotK?

It's really not a hard limit, but I'm not comfortable adding ideas before they appear in canon (RCS is the first reference, covering 758 BC, whereas the previous is DoD for 751, so I'd prefer the first not be until after DoD in 751). There's no real reason for that, however. But I'm equally uncomfortable with positing the existence of clusters previous to 740 BC (DoD introducing clusters, but no mention in the Red Box set in 740 BC).

[EDIT: Mind you, Mangrum blows that out of the water with talk of the "Barovian cluster" in GazII...]

The "Shroud" connection is very interesting and suggestive, though--nice catch, btw--so maybe 751-ish is the best choice.

Well, the reasoning also allows for anywhere between 751-755, so a later year may be better as well. And as you mentioned, there's no hard rule saying that the Mistway couldn't have existed even during the time of HotK, it's just that I personally wouldn't feel comfortable positing it.

But to again ask the question... What do people feel is a good year for the Mistway to be discovered? (I ask selfishly, as my submission is on the Divinity of Mankind outside of Paridon, and with the Mistway it means Darkon is the first they run into... Strong vs weak Darkon and strong vs weak Eternal Order will obviously change these initial encounters)

[Pamela]

Actually, I set the date way back to before 600. The RCS didn't make a big deal about the reference to the Shrouded Way (ie set a date as if it were a recent discovery). Martira Bay originally started as a 'simple fishing village'. I figured its proximity to the Mistway helped to account for its fairly swift evolution into a sophisticated metropolis in its own right. But hey, I'm biased.

Bear in mind that if Paridon had lost all its natural resources in 740 and was dependent now solely on occasional traders visiting, I doubt it would remain either so technologically advanced or politically quiet by 742.

[Nathan of the FoS]

I doubt that. Azalin writes about it himself, that his beloved Darkon had gone to pot without him present. (Remember, in 751, Azalin is "dead" and Death appears to be a pretty absent ruler) GazII also makes it pretty clear that the government of Darkon is decentralized in Azalin's absence and hints that there might have been conflicts between the different baronies within the Kingdom of Darkon. It's pretty easy to assume that any and all trade deals with Paridon would be with individual baronies in Darkon and not with Death's administration.

Woops, my bad. I was thinking of Darkon as it usually is, not as it was during the Azalin-less interregnum. You're right; during that time there would have been no central government in Darkon to speak of.

It's really not a hard limit, but I'm not comfortable adding ideas before they appear in canon (RCS is the first reference, covering 758 BC, whereas the previous is DoD for 751, so I'd prefer the first not be until after DoD in 751).

Er...which idea are we referring to here? The formation of stable Mistways? The RL PHB doesn't attach a date to this phenomenon, so I assume we could put it pretty much anytime after the formation of Darkon and be in the clear.

There's no real reason for that, however. But I'm equally uncomfortable with positing the existence of clusters previous to 740 BC (DoD introducing clusters, but no mention in the Red Box set in 740 BC).

[EDIT: Mind you, Mangrum blows that out of the water with talk of the "Barovian cluster" in GazII...]

Well, the Mistway doesn't require that the endpoint be a cluster, right? It could just be Darkon to Paridon...

But to again ask the question... What do people feel is a good year for the Mistway to be discovered? (I ask selfishly, as my submission is on the Divinity of Mankind outside of Paridon, and with the Mistway it means Darkon is the first they run into... Strong vs weak Darkon and strong vs weak Eternal Order will obviously change these initial encounters)

I'd say soon after the creation of Darkon--sometime in the late 500s or early 600s. Other opinions?

[Undead Cabbage]

On this topic, but slightly different question,

In the gaz, do we need to write exactly when mistways were formed? We have 2 canon mistways written in the Gaz (Paridon-Darkon, Paridon-Nova Vaasa), and two non-canon. I haven't the slightest clue when the Nova-Pari Mistway was formed, but my guess would be when NV first came into the Dread Realms.

But is it necessary that we put this in the gaz, or is this just for curiousity sake? I don't mind either way.

[Lord Cyclohexane]

It's really not a hard limit, but I'm not comfortable adding ideas before they appear in canon (RCS is the first reference, covering 758 BC, whereas the previous is DoD for 751, so I'd prefer the first not be until after DoD in 751).

Er...which idea are we referring to here? The formation of stable Mistways? The RL PHB doesn't attach a date to this phenomenon, so I assume we could put it pretty much anytime after the formation of Darkon and be in the clear.

Sorry, my writing wasn't clear in the least, probably because it's a silly concern and thus hard to explain. What I meant was, I wasn't comfortable positing the existence of a Mistway prior to 751 BC. The reasoning is because Domains of Dread (describing the world as of 751 BC) doesn't mention Mistways so I'm not sure if Mistways actually existed before 751. RCS introduces the idea for the 758 BC setting, meaning they could have sprung into existence between 751-758, so I was comfortable going back as far as 751. But I'm uncomfortable introducing ideas prior to the game book that first introduces that idea, so I was uncomfortable positing the existence of a Mistway pre-751 because there's nowhere *saying* that any exist pre-751.

However, I am perfectly comfortable with others positing that existence. Since both Llana and yourself posit the creation of the Shrouded Way when Darkon came into existence in 579, I'm going with that. After all, just because the Ravenloft authors didn't create the notion of Mistways until RCS doesn't mean that Mistways can't exist prior to that point; I just didn't want to be the first to say that a Mistway existed prior to 751.

So thanks! I'm now considerably freer than I was before.

There's no real reason for that, however. But I'm equally uncomfortable with positing the existence of clusters previous to 740 BC (DoD introducing clusters, but no mention in the Red Box set in 740 BC).

Well, the Mistway doesn't require that the endpoint be a cluster, right? It could just be Darkon to Paridon...

Sorry, it's due to my poor explanation above. That point was not related to Mistways at all, but rather about introducing ideas into Ravenloft *prior* to the setting book (Black Box, Red Box, DoD, RCS) that creates it. As DoD is the first setting book to create the notion of "clusters", I wouldn't feel comfortable saying that a cluster came into existence prior to 740 BC (end of Red Box).

At least, that was until Mangrum changed that by positing a cluster *prior* to 740 BC. Just like you guys positing a Mistway prior to 751 BC, having someone else posit it makes it perfectly okay for me to follow suit from then on. I just don't want to be the first.

But again... What do people feel is a good year for the Mistway to be discovered? (I ask selfishly, as my submission is on the Divinity of Mankind outside of Paridon, and with the Mistway it means Darkon is the first they run into... Strong vs weak Darkon and strong vs weak Eternal Order will obviously change these initial encounters)

I'd say soon after the creation of Darkon--sometime in the late 500s or early 600s. Other opinions?

Sounds good to me.

[Lord Cyclohexane]

In the gaz, do we need to write exactly when mistways were formed? [...] But is it necessary that we put this in the gaz, or is this just for curiousity sake? I don't mind either way.

It was important when I thought the Mistway was recent (in the last 20 years), due to how that new transportation method would change previously existing methods of trade in goods and ideas. So the importance would be on how things changed.

But now, since both Mistways are listed as being pretty darn old... It's really not important at all because things haven't changed.

[Jester of the FoS]

I view Mistways as an essential part of trade that could very well have existed since the begining of the Land. It just wasn't mentioned. For another example Falkovnian's grain and fetility were never mentioned earlier than the RLCS either, but that does not stop us from assuming it was always so.

[Lord Cyclohexane]

Actually, out of curiousity on this...

We have 2 canon mistways written in the Gaz (Paridon-Darkon, Paridon-Nova Vaasa), and two non-canon.

So... What are the two non-canon? I know Paridon-Nosos, but what's the other? (If you can't say, I won't pry further)

[Pamela]

It's a secret....Mwahahahaha....

[Lord Cyclohexane]

Oh, one other point (and this applies to the Timor Gaz as well, especially since I thought of it reading through that thread):


One of the things I *really* liked about the Doomsday Gazetteers was that, for most domains, there was a story mention or Dread Possibility relating to a villain vying for Darklordship, should the current Darklord fall. There's the Brain in Dementlieu, Simon Audaire for Richemulot, etc.

Note that this isn't present for every domain, but seemed a great idea to me. Is this idea part of the FoS Gazetteer plan (so backups for every Darklord), or not really on the radar screen? And no, I don't mean to throw that in for this one, as it's a little late for adding new ideas.

(Man, I should be writing... my stuff's not done yet...)

[Jester of the FoS]

Sourange we didn't have one, but there were plenty of villians. Or the Frat themselves. We're no so much concerned about replacements as new baddies and cool foes. I think the Gaz crew had much the same thoughs, expanding the opportunities for villians beyond a single Big Bad.
I do know in Timor I'd like to see a second Queen running around stirring stuff up. And Paridon definetly needs some competition, but I think Sodo if safe for a bit.