A concept it might be interesting to explore

[alhoon]

Thread necromancers!

Nice thread to have back.

[Lord Cyclohexane]

Hey, everyone else is doing it, so:

Anti-Richten:

Whereas VR was an herbalist who sought to protect and nurture life, AR is an herbalist who seeks to avoid and forestall death.

Whereas VR's life was peaceful and idyllic until the tragic death of his family, AR watched family member after family member die off and leave him alone and unloved.

Whereas VR has always reached out to others and cherished their friendships, AR is afraid to reach out lest this be yet another person who will die on him.

Whereas VR had a wife and child who were taken from him and he has come to terms with their deaths, AR is creating for himself a family of creations, each more deathless than the last, but which he is still desperately afraid of losing.

Whereas VR's life was irrevocably changed upon the death of his loved ones, AR's life was irrevocably changed when he brought one of his loved ones back from the dead.

Whereas VR researched the horrors of the night to learn how to oppose their power, AR researches the horrors of the night to learn how to steal their power and thus make himself and his creations more hearty.

And whereas VR started with a life of peace and tranquility and later lost it, AR is only now gaining such a life as he creates the stability that he never had in youth.

[Lord Cyclohexane]

I just had another thought, seeing as this thread started with a discussion of DC Comics and then went into the idea of how an anti-Ravenloft would be unworkable, and so:

Isn't the DC Universe technically an anti-Ravenloft? I mean, look at it: Superman is technically the anti-Darklord for Metropolis, as Superman not only reflects and affects Metropolis but similarly Metropolis reflects and affects Superman.

Gotham City is totally a reflection of what Batman is on the inside, same as Barovia is with Strahd.

Isn't the concept of the link between Land and Lord in Ravenloft pretty similar to what we see between DCU heroes and the cities they protect?

And, considering the requirement that a Land can't exist without a Darklord, wouldn't Central City without a Flash be a pretty lame destination?

And, just as there's always another evil person to take the reins when the Darklord dies, isn't there always another hero ready to step up and be the next Green Lantern or the next Fastest Man Alive or to Battle For The Cowl? Or, just as Azalin or Strahd always return from the dead, what of Hal Jordan and Superman's returns from the dead?

I think the concept of an anti-Ravenloft would be at least as fun to play in as a Supers game set in the DCU. In fact, using the concept of anti-Ravenloft might make that DCU Superhero game even more fun.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

Hmmm. I wasn't all that interested in this idea at first. (If there's one thing I personally like about 4E, it's that they've done away with artificial parallelism in planes, elementals, etc. ) But Lord Cyc's comments about an Anti-Richten got me thinking.

What if, rather than simple polar opposites of various darklords and NPCs, we re-imagined them as alternate-history versions of themselves, who'd made different choices in life? If they weren't born into opposite circumstances, as has generally been proposed here, but instead, had lived identical lives right up to their crucial moment of choosing between Good and Evil? Never mind re-inventing them from the ground up: all it really takes to create an "anti-_______" is if they demonstrate just a little more strength, or weakness, of character at such a pivotal moment.

If Strahd had refused the Dark Powers' bargain, what might he be now? A mournful ghost murdered by Leo Dilisnya's men, who haunts his former castle's ruins, occasionally manifesting to warn the living descendents of Sergei and Tatyana against their enemies? A relentless dread revenant who stalks the Land he once ruled, forever questing to destroy a vampiric Leo Dilisnya who'd accepted the DPs' deal in Strahd's place? Or simply a long-dead national war hero, whose honorable name the Barovians still -- and genuinely should -- reverence with pride?

If Van Richten hadn't found the strength to turn away from vengefulness, but had continued his crusade against vampirism out of hatred and rage, what sort of man would he have become? A ruthless exploiter of fellow adventurers, intentionally conning them into suicide missions so he can observe a monster's tactics and powers in action as it kills them? An intolerant cleanser of all those tainted by darkness, who'd callously slit a young Gennifer Weathermay-Foxgrove's throat rather than risk her ever manifesting the Dread Disease? His reality's version of Emil Bollenbach, who breeds deadly new strains of vampirism in the mad hope that they'll out-compete and thus eliminate Baron Metus's bloodline?

[Lord Cyclohexane]

An intolerant cleanser of all those tainted by darkness, who'd callously slit a young Gennifer Weathermay-Foxgrove's throat rather than risk her ever manifesting the Dread Disease?

Every time I read this idea when proposed in this thread, I thought to myself, "If Van Richten had become such, would VR have performed the role of Teodorus Raines, prophecying the Fourth Book of Ezra almost 20 years earlier?"

And, since I couldn't remember the name "Teodorus Raines" and had to Google it up, I ran across information about the *real* Fourth Book of Ezra / Esdras (which, coincidentally I'm sure, also happens to be an Apocalyptic book recounting visions of the end of the world)

By the way, Roti, I definitely like your newer take on anti-Strahd. I like the thought of Strahd having bargained with Death but, at the last moment when Strahd would have been striking down Sergei, Strahd realizes just how much his brother means to him, resists the evil inside himself and breaks his pact with Death. Only to, immediately afterwards, watch his brother be cut down by Dilisnya assassins, just as Strahd realized that he loved his brother and truly wished the best for him.

[Yaoi Huntress Earth]

I'm a huge fan of alturnate worlds and "What if..." scenarios and the Strahd scenarios are interesting. I could still see him being a ruthless person even if he refused the Dark Power's offer (which has the makings for a great tragic hero\anti-hero).

Other interesting ones could be...

-What if Ebonbane had killed Elena Faith-Hold insted of Katerni?
-Jacqueline's Failure: Louise chickens out and tells their uncle Claude about her sister's plan and the two conspired a counter-attack, killing Jacqueline.
-Realizing that she loves Pieter more than she fears her mother, Ivana refuses believe her mother and won't kill her love.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

I wouldn't be surprised if an "anti-Strahd" who'd chosen a different path would still be something of a hardcase, given that he'd already exhibited a ruthless streak as a living general and ruler.

FWIW, I personally suspect that the Alchemist -- that sober, not-very-sociable scholar-Strahd from I10 -- is a pretty good approximation of the man Strahd von Zarovich would have become, if he'd never had to go to war in the first place. At least in the novels, Strahd never was an extrovert, preferring his books and the company of pragmatic soldiers to dealing with courtiers and the like. If the Tergs had never invaded, he most likely would've spent most of his life reading, doing the occasional military chore for Barov, and fiddling with the low-level magics available in Old Borjia.

[Yaoi Huntress Earth]

So how do you think that Strahd would've reacted to Tatayana?

[Rotipher of the FoS]

Well, IIRC the Alchemist was deeply in love with a woman from the I10-era Weathermay family. Had Strahd stayed home and led a normal life, he likewise would've probably found someone closer to his own age and social class to marry, before Tatyana was even born. Such a match might've been less passionate for Strahd, but ultimately would have been far more stable, IMO: he and Tatyana never had much in common, so it's ironically unlikely that they'd have gotten along well, even if Sergei had never existed.

That's not to say a non-warrior Strahd wouldn't have found her attractive, just that I doubt he'd have become murderously obsessed with her. IMO, Strahd's infatuation with Tatyana was as much about wanting to recapture his own lost youth as about anything unique to her as an individual. Had Strahd lived a more emotionally-satisfying life, he wouldn't have been so embittered as to betray his own family loyalties. Together with the fact that he'd have watched Sergei grow up, and thus, formed a far stronger attachment to his brother, I'm fairly sure that he'd have refused the DPs' temptations under such circumstances.

[Manofevil]

What if, rather than simple polar opposites of various darklords and NPCs, we re-imagined them as alternate-history versions of themselves, who'd made different choices in life? If they weren't born into opposite circumstances, as has generally been proposed here, but instead, had lived identical lives right up to their crucial moment of choosing between Good and Evil? Never mind re-inventing them from the ground up: all it really takes to create an "anti-_______" is if they demonstrate just a little more strength, or weakness, of character at such a pivotal moment.

Have to disagree with that last sentence. An "anti-_______" is created by reversing everything. An ALTERNATE _______ is created by different choices. Similar but different animals. And if you wanted to start a thread involving the creation of such alternate versions, I, for one, would be very interested in reading it. Especially since each DarkLord and NPC could have multiple alternates.

I'm still working on the Anti- Powers check but this came to me in the meantime:
Harkon Lucas loved music. It was his first love from almost before he could even walk. He used to hear bards singing in the hills and forests of Cormyr. They would come the forests to be alone and compose their music and little Harkon loved to listen to them from the bushes. When his fellow wolfweres began to attack his beloved music makers, Harkon would defend them with all his passion. As he was larger and stronger than his fellow wolfweres, He succeeded in driving them away. His passion for music was such that it overwhelmed his basic nature. He wanted nothing so much as to make music. The bards embraced him as kindred spirit and taught him all they knew of music. Many of these bards and minstrels were musical geniuses and Harkon learned things unknown to most musicians. His fellow wolfweres, of course, wanted nothing to do with him or his dream and so he decided to join the world of men. The breaking point came when several of his fellow wolfweres attacked him and his teachers as Harkon was performing for them. He was singing so he was caught off guard. He fought with all the savagery in his nature and passion in his soul but when he had finally slain all the marauding wolfweres, he turned around and saw that his teachers were dead. He was crushed. To this day, he finds performing to be a very painful experience- a serious handicap for a musician. His intense feelings often cause him to make terrible mistakes in his music making any official performances into complete cacaphany. This has lead to an interminable case of stage fright on his part.As such he is rarely asked to perform officially. Hearing him rehearse, however, is a very moving experience. For this reason, Harkon Lucas has embraced the role of teacher to other musicians. He considers his pupils his children and treats them accordingly. He feeds his wolfwere appetites with animals and only releases it's savagery when he sees his beloved musicians attacked. Sadly, this happens quite often in the wolfwere and werewolf infested realm of (anti-)RavenLoft he's settled in: (anti-)Kartakass. Currently, Harkon Lucas teaches some of the most promising musicians in (anti-)Kartakass. More Meistersingers of the country have been pupils of his than not. Sadly, like all lands in (anti-)Ravenloft, (anti-)Kartakass is a land in constant conflict. Couple the constant battles between wolfweres, werewolves, and humans in (anti-)Kartakass with the big egos of many of the brilliant musicians, and you have a perfect recipe for that constant conflict, and while Harkon Lucas is more than willing and capable to defend his musical prodigies from the beasts of the forest, he is utterly incapable of interceding in the many duels fought between rival musicians. It breaks his heart to see otherwise promising talents lost to pointless, murderous, rivalries. Harkon Lucas might have better luck looking after the people of (anti-)Kartakass if he were to take a greater politcal role in the country, but then he'd have to abandon his teaching.

[Lord Cyclohexane]

Have to disagree with that last sentence. An "anti-_______" is created by reversing everything. An ALTERNATE _______ is created by different choices. Similar but different animals.

While I realize that you created this thread and so can set the discussion to anything you'd like, I disagree with your idea that an "anti-X is created by reversing everything." If that were true, Ultraman wouldn't be the anti-Superman as per your initial post, but rather the Bizarro-Superman from Alan Moore's famous "Whatever Happened To The Man Of Tomorrow" would be your anti-Superman. And that's straight down to the last detail of that Bizarro, as Bizarro realized that to be the reverse of everything that Superman is, then since Superman was alive, Bizarro had to be dead. And thus, Bizarro killed himself.

Frankly, that makes this whole thread pointless and no fun at all.

I'm still working on the Anti- Powers check [...]

For some reason, the idea of Anti-Powers checks always reminds me that, while Dante had an easy time coming up with punishments for wrongdoings and thus Inferno was an easy book to write, Paradiso ended up being much much more difficult to write and thus ended up much more boring to read. I imagine that, similarly, Anti-Powers Checks will be much much more difficult to come up with than Powers Checks are.

What if, rather than simple polar opposites of various darklords and NPCs, we re-imagined them as alternate-history versions of themselves, who'd made different choices in life? If they weren't born into opposite circumstances, as has generally been proposed here, but instead, had lived identical lives right up to their crucial moment of choosing between Good and Evil? Never mind re-inventing them from the ground up: all it really takes to create an "anti-_______" is if they demonstrate just a little more strength, or weakness, of character at such a pivotal moment.

That was somewhat what I'd considered, Roti, although with my Anti-Richten I started a bit earlier. I've always seen a character's choices as being based on earlier experiences in their lives. Hence, I gave AR a different childhood (as close to mirror opposite) as I could to VR's, and then I tried to make things as logically consistent as I could.

In the longer writing that I chose to delete instead of post, I'd even flipped VR's life of pomp and privilege for AR's life of pestilence and privation. I'd had both start in Richten Haus, but after having AR's father die of illness, AR watched the rest of his family die and his ancestral home burn to the ground during a Falkovnian invasion. Living in the gutter in Il Aluk, AR would become quite familiar with Pestilence, War and Famine as all he'd become close to would die off, and one day it would be AR who would become Death and rule the Necropolis, finally regaining his family and all those he lost, finally getting a taste at the kinship and friendship that VR always had.

Anyway, in my setup, it'd all be the difference in youth that would make the difference later on, rather than having everything hinge on one defining moment.

[jules]

The alternative-headless horseman would be the actual HEAD[/size] of the headless horseman doomed to seek, but never find,his body,sometime coming close,but never finding it.

[Manofevil]

The alternative-headless horseman would be the actual HEAD[/size] of the headless horseman doomed to seek, but never find,his body,sometime coming close,but never finding it.

That's nothing, How will we ever do the God Brain. As the God Foot?

[Rotipher of the FoS]

An elder brain which somehow got its consciousness transferred into the zombified illithid corpses that its brain-components came from, maybe? It's lost nearly all its intellect, save primitive survival impulses and a frustrating awareness of how much precious knowledge it's lost, leaving it powerless to learn or reason so long as its essence is cut off from its pool-bound true form. Kind of a Toben-the-Many without the smarts.

[jules]

Don't forget the alter-loony equilvent to the loony darklord!