Origin of Vistani, Ezra, Hala?

[alhoon]

That's true with everything though. People are stepping on eggshells.

[Hell_Born]

For Hala, I found a pretty intersting possible inspiration for her: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ala_(demon)
Apparently a female mythological creature of Bulgarian and Serbian culture, and was basically a mixture of the Greek Lamia and the Slavic Baba Yaga, known for its appatite and said to control the weather.
However, the Ala seems to be a strictly evil creature, so besides the magic and snakes, theirs less connection to hala.
Considering worshippers of Hala wield 'The Weave', more than likely she was inspired by a mixture of Mystra and Selune.

I always thought Hala was "Crystal Dragon Wicca", contrasting Ezra as "Crystal Dragon Jesus".

[tomokaicho]

[Still, it is interesting how the authors discuss the tensions between the "Gypsy"-identifying Romani and the "Roma"-identifying Romani. Either term could cause trouble in the wrong context.

My larger point is that people are looking at documentation from the past which uses the term "gypsy", and impugning the authors for not using a neologism that wasn't even widespread or widely accepted. Imagine for example if there was a movement that said use of the word "Burma" in the past was racist, even though Myanmar (Burma) had not established that as the name for their state yet. It's similar, but "Roma" is even more tenuous than such a case.

[Wolfglide of the Fraternity]

My larger point is that people are looking at documentation from the past which uses the term "gypsy", and impugning the authors for not using a neologism that wasn't even widespread or widely accepted.

That is fair; we can't complain that people were not using "Roma" before it came into use as a term for the group as a whole. That said, "gypsy" was still based on a bad assumption in the past by outsiders to the culture, so it wasn't a particularly great option.

I just looked up the Burma vs. Myanmar matter—that seems to be a sticky wicket of its own.

[Speedwagon]

For Hala, I found a pretty intersting possible inspiration for her: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ala_(demon)
Apparently a female mythological creature of Bulgarian and Serbian culture, and was basically a mixture of the Greek Lamia and the Slavic Baba Yaga, known for its appatite and said to control the weather.
However, the Ala seems to be a strictly evil creature, so besides the magic and snakes, theirs less connection to hala.
Considering worshippers of Hala wield 'The Weave', more than likely she was inspired by a mixture of Mystra and Selune.

I always thought Hala was "Crystal Dragon Wicca", contrasting Ezra as "Crystal Dragon Jesus".

I had a similar thought, and I appreciate the reference to that trope. For those not in the loop: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/ ... ragonJesus

[Resonant Curse]

Resonant Curse - do you have a page number for the Vistani homeland? Because from what I read (via Internet Archive) the protagonist is a "prince of the Vistani" which is new and interesting, but I can't find an indicator that it is the Vistani homeland.

I'll try to find it when I am home tomorrow.

[alhoon]

Considering how little I know about Wicca and that, at least IMO, Wicca is not a well defined religious movement, I have trouble with the Hala / Wicca thing.

On the other hand, Ezra is dissimilar to Christian church in a great many ways. The Inquisition is not even Ezra's IIRC.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

Considering how little I know about Wicca and that, at least IMO, Wicca is not a well defined religious movement, I have trouble with the Hala / Wicca thing.

On the other hand, Ezra is dissimilar to Christian church in a great many ways. The Inquisition is not even Ezra's IIRC.

Nobody eXP-Ects the Ezran Inquisition!...

It is insinuated that the Nevuchar Springs Sect does have a "Spanish Inquisition-like department" trying to uproot the Legions of the Night.

The theology of the Nevuchar Springs Sect places particular emphasis on this theological concept of Ezra as a protector, for in their apocalyptic prophecy the Legions will flood across the lands at the Time of Unparalleled Darkness. The Legions will seek to wipe out or corrupt Ezra's faithful. In order to defend them, doctrine holds that the forces believed to represent the Legions of the Night must be stamped out.

Also in Heroes of Light there is the Anchorite Inquisitor prestige class, though it belongs to the Mordentish Sect of the Church of Ezra. They are Lawful Good inquisitors whom monitor evil and report back their findings to their church (they have the Candle Communion special ability to assist with such communications, and a number of magical abilities to help them see things as they truly are). Although the Anchorite Inquisitors' reports are vital for the Church in assigning Anchorites to fight evil, many times Anchorite Inquisitors must face evil on alone or with a few trusted allies.

[tomokaicho]

Considering how little I know about Wicca and that, at least IMO, Wicca is not a well defined religious movement, I have trouble with the Hala / Wicca thing

Yeah. Just no. Wicca was founded in the 1930s by Gerald Gardner. It makes claims to connection to witchcraft, however, there is no connection.

What I have seen is people make a circular argument. Witches are Wicca (nope) and the followers of Hala are also based on Wicca (again nope), therefore you must walk on eggshells. No thanks.

Re: Ezra as a pseudo Catholic church. This is one of the changes to the Ravenloft setting that I didn't like. I prefered it when the denizens of Ravenloft were less sure of religion, instead following superstition. Faith gives hope and certainty. A powerful church like the Ezran church changes the facts on the ground.

[alhoon]

Faith gives hope and certainty. A powerful church like the Ezran church changes the facts on the ground.

And thus, Faith is sure to take root in such dark places. Especially when you have people, even few people, that can actually do miracles or use magic.
I have no issues with established religion in Ravenloft and I think it is a very reasonable and realistic turn that adds to the setting. What I don't like is that there are too few religions. It is practically Ezra + something else in most places. I would like an approach of "3-4 major religions + local, domain-wide religions + superstitions, cults, fiends"

It is insinuated that the Nevuchar Springs Sect does have a "Spanish Inquisition-like department" trying to uproot the Legions of the Night.

The theology of the Nevuchar Springs Sect places particular emphasis on ..

Also in Heroes of Light there is the Anchorite Inquisitor prestige class, ...

But those don't have to do with the trappings and idioms of the Catholic church. Even the part that there are sects instead of a pope or Patriarch, or that there are Anchorites going out with a sword in hand and heavy armor... those do not bring to mind the Catholics or any priesthood.

[Mistmaster]

Faith gives hope and certainty. A powerful church like the Ezran church changes the facts on the ground.

And thus, Faith is sure to take root in such dark places. Especially when you have people, even few people, that can actually do miracles or use magic.
I have no issues with established religion in Ravenloft and I think it is a very reasonable and realistic turn that adds to the setting. What I don't like is that there are too few religions. It is practically Ezra + something else in most places. I would like an approach of "3-4 major religions + local, domain-wide religions + superstitions, cults, fiends"

It is insinuated that the Nevuchar Springs Sect does have a "Spanish Inquisition-like department" trying to uproot the Legions of the Night.

The theology of the Nevuchar Springs Sect places particular emphasis on ..

Also in Heroes of Light there is the Anchorite Inquisitor prestige class, ...

But those don't have to do with the trappings and idioms of the Catholic church. Even the part that there are sects instead of a pope or Patriarch, or that there are Anchorites going out with a sword in hand and heavy armor... those do not bring to mind the Catholics or any priesthood.

My approach is 9 archetypal deities with endless local aspects and poltheistic pantheons. I have three proselitizing cults who have reason to be world wide: The Church of Ezra, the Divinity of Self and the Iron Church.First and Last have a very Catholic-like ierarchy.

[alhoon]

The Church of Ezra in your game has a Catholic-like Hierarchy? So, there is one person that has absolute authority over the doctrine, bishops, cardinals etc?
Or do you mean ... something else? If something else, what?

Is there an article in the QtR about the religions in your game?

[Mistmaster]

More like the Orthodox church but yes, the Bastion is the final authorithy of its own branch. If you read my article on Borca on Qtr 26, if I remember it correctly, you will find out something more on my vision of the Homefaith.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

But those don't have to do with the trappings and idioms of the Catholic church.

I believe the different sects of the Church of Ezra were probably inspired by the different dogmas of the Christian faith, but the Church of Ezra is not a copy of the Christian Church(es) and definitely not a copy of Catholicism, though it is inspired by it.

Even the part that there are sects instead of a pope or Patriarch,

I believe the Church of the Lawgiver is more similar to having a Pope or Patriarch but still you have Bastions' Councils that discuss vital issues affecting the Church as a whole, similar to the various Christian Councils (Council of Ephesus, Council of Chalcedon etc.). In the Church of Ezra the Bastions of different sects have the authority of unchallenged leadership over their respective sect, yet bind themselves, in principle at the very least, to the decisions of the Bastions' Council and recognise the greater authority of the Praesidius of the Church of Ezra.

or that there are Anchorites going out with a sword in hand and heavy armor... those do not bring to mind the Catholics or any priesthood.

I will disagree to this cause there were many religious military orders in the past like the Knights Templar, the Knights Hospitaller, the Order of Saint James, the Order of Calatrava, and the Teutonic Knights and dozens of Crusades that show otherwise.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Ezra is definitely a pastiche of different Christian sects, as befitting the genre. Lots of the gothic horror source material has Christian symbolism and/or direct involvement of Christian clergy. I see the "Home Faith" in Borca borrowing heavily from early Catholicism with the Praesidius ("Pope") being based there, Cathedrals with Gargoyles, rigid church hierarchy (Prasesidius, Bastion, Sentire, etc.), embroilment in local politics with the Boritsis, etc. The Mordentish sect is more Protestant, having been the first to break away from the home faith, and the Darkonese sect more fire-and-brimstone Evangelical. Dementlieu's sect is tougher to pin down. Its focus on incorporating other traditions has a bit of a Unitarian bent, though early Christianity also incorporated local pagan traditions and such in order to spread.

Note that I'm only speaking in the trappings here. No implication should be taken regarding the alignments these Ezran sects canonically have vs. real-world religions.