Origin of Vistani, Ezra, Hala?

[Hell_Born]

Long story short, I want to do some research on the enigmatic and now controversial Vistani, as well as the two oldest religions native to the Demiplane of Dread; the Churches of Ezra and Hala. What sources should I check out to do this?

For Vistani, I believe the concept first emerged in the original I6: Castle Ravenloft, where they lacked their future mystical powers and were instead merely one of the many "gypsy" peoples of D&D canon who had been forced into begrudging service to Strahd in excange for the formula that allows safe travel outside of the poisoned mists surrounding the valley of Barovia (the extent of Strahd's dominion, pre-setting)? But it was the first setting boxed set, Realms of Terror, that turned them into their iconic form, with Van Richten's Guide to the Vistani fleshing out their culture?

I have no idea where Ezra and Hala's roots lie, although I know that Ezra was well-established enough that Domains of Dread provided the Anchorite, or specialty priest of Ezra, as a Ravenloft-approved variant of the cleric.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

Long story short, I want to do some research on the enigmatic and now controversial Vistani, as well as the two oldest religions native to the Demiplane of Dread; the Churches of Ezra and Hala. What sources should I check out to do this?

As you wrote Van Richten's Guide to the Vistani is the best source of material for them likewise Van Richten's Guide to Witches (Hags) contained within Van Richten's Monster Hunter's Compendium III, contains a lot of information for the Church of Hala, though it is 2e and you will need some converting of rules for witches. As for the Church of Ezra it is not as old as you may think, Yakov Dilidnya penned the First Book of Ezra in 666 BC, though according to the Dementlieuse Sect's teachings, texts from the "original" Church of Ezra date back to 309 BC or slightly earlier, though this is likely a part of Dementlieu's False History.

The Church of Ezra first appeared in 2e Domains of Dread and though it doesn't have to much info you can find a lot on their Holy Texts and themselves in Kargatane's Book of Secrets in John W. Mangrum's Anchors of Faith article, which is the closest you can get to an official canon. Then additional info is scattered in the various Gazetters (Darkon, Borca, Mordent, Dementlieu, Richemulot) and the Anchorite of the Mists class in Van Richten's Arsenal.

The first religion of Ravenloft was in Barovia the Church of Andral, what somehow later was transformed to the Church of the Morninglord through religious syncretism. The only known priest of Andral was a ravenkin, Pyoor Twohundredsummers that led the Keepers of the Black Feather until his death in 755 BC and was succeeded by Keeva Sixtywinters.

[Hell_Born]

As you wrote Van Richten's Guide to the Vistani is the best source of material for them likewise Van Richten's Guide to Witches (Hags) contained within Van Richten's Monster Hunter's Compendium III, contains a lot of information for the Church of Hala, though it is 2e and you will need some converting of rules for witches. As for the Church of Ezra it is not as old as you may think, Yakov Dilidnya penned the First Book of Ezra in 666 BC, though according to the Dementlieuse Sect's teachings, texts from the "original" Church of Ezra date back to 309 BC or slightly earlier, though this is likely a part of Dementlieu's False History.

The Church of Ezra first appeared in 2e Domains of Dread and though it doesn't have to much info you can find a lot on their Holy Texts and themselves in Kargatane's Book of Secrets in John W. Mangrum's Anchors of Faith article, which is the closest you can get to an official canon. Then additional info is scattered in the various Gazetters (Darkon, Borca, Mordent, Dementlieu, Richemulot) and the Anchorite of the Mists class in Van Richten's Arsenal.

The first religion of Ravenloft was in Barovia the Church of Andral, what somehow later was transformed to the Church of the Morninglord through religious syncretism. The only known priest of Andral was a ravenkin, Pyoor Twohundredsummers that led the Keepers of the Black Feather until his death in 755 BC and was succeeded by Keeva Sixtywinters.

I appreciate it; I'm basically trying to chase up the meta-history of these topics, rather than the in-universe history and lore - who wrote about them, what books did they appear in, etc. That's definitely some useful advice.

In fact, is there any definitive list anywhere of the differences between the Realms of Terror and Domains of Dread boxed sets?

[Mephisto of the FoS]

In fact, is there any definitive list anywhere of the differences between the Realms of Terror and Domains of Dread boxed sets?

Well I don't think so but there must be many since the Realms of Terror is pre-Grand Conjunction, and Domains of Dread post-Requiem so many domains have been altered after that massive event, some have been lost and new ones have been created, also a new sea washes the rocks of Eastern Core domains. Domains of Dread also introduced Clusters

As for mechanics the Powers Checks, Fear Checks and Horror Checks are different while Madness Checks were introduced in Forbidden Lore boxed set. Also there are rules for psionics since Realms of Terror was published before the psionist class. The Red Box Ravenloft Campaign Setting combines stuff from Realms of Terror and Forbidden Lore and has the stats of more darklords that were missing before.

While secret societies were first introduced in Forbidden Lore in Domains of Dread book there are new ones introduced such as the Carnival, The FoS, Ezra, The Unholy Order of the Grave and others first mentioned in 2e Heroes of Light mentioned (Green Hand, the Circle) and the Vistani are mentioned as a secret society although they actually aren't.

Domains of Dread also introduced the Arcanist class but the most radical difference between the two is the world-building of Domains of Dread that had specifics for native Ravenloft PCs making a big step from the weekend in Hell kind of thinking that existed in the Realm of Terror era (and re-introduced in 5e VRGtRavenloft. We have for the first time also a description of demihuman cultures in Ravenloft and the Half-Vistani PC race.

[alhoon]

About Vistani meta-history, they went through various phases. In 4e many of the Vistani were turned to halflings.

[Mistmaster]

In the Mistworld they were an advanced human population living in Invidia who got diasporazed by a calamity caused by the first Dukkar.

[Hell_Born]

About Vistani meta-history, they went through various phases. In 4e many of the Vistani were turned to halflings.

I believe you may be confusing 4e with 3e, where Expedition to Castle Ravenloft ignored the Realms of Terror-created lore of the Vistani and went mostly back to their I6 roots as "just" an itinerant tribe of "gypsies" who had been forced to serve Strahd and who were happy to see the end of him if they could get some patsies to do it for them as opposed to the mysterious mystical people of Ravenloft-the-setting. I still don't know why WoTC decided to make them a mixture of humans and halflings under a cursed seeress who had become a pseudo-Hag, though.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

Unfortunatelly Alhoon is not mistaken...

Play a Vistani if you want . . .
✦ to come from a culture that allows you to defy racial stereotypes despite your race.

Without homeland, the Vistani roam the world and its reflections. They weave enigmatic stories of their past, and their ways are inscrutable to outsiders. Vistani clans, full of folk of differing races, rove outside the politics and concerns of civilized places.

One starting point for the Vistani suggests that the people were once all halflings. These folk were among those first created by the union between Melora and Sehanine. When the two goddesses abandoned the race, the halfling Vistan took it harder than most. Although she recognized Avandra’smaternal love for halflings, she also saw the adoptive nature of this kindness. The deep sadness of one rejected filled her. She considered the halflings to be unjustly orphaned, and she joined with others who felt the same, becoming their leader. With her followers, she vowed to make a home for young castaways and strays in need of family and support, halfling and otherwise. The first Vistani took the magic of fey moon, the callous world, and the winding road as their own, never to settle and grow complacent.

Vistani is not a race but a supernatural blood connection between folk of various races who have grown up in or joined Vistani clans. If you wish to play a Vistani, choose a PC race as normal, and then select the Vistani Heritage feat at 1st level to gain your connection to the Vistani. If you select the Vistani Heritage feat after 1st-level, your Dungeon Master can require you to explain how your character became Vistani. The most likely way is a Vistani Blooding ritual, which must be earned during the game— the DM is final arbiter of who can receive such an honor. Similarly, your DM can disallow retraining of bloodline feats if you have no explanation of how your character loses his or her link to the Vistani.

( All quotes from 4e Ravenloft article Playing Vistani, Dragon #380, p76)

What a mess...

[Hell_Born]

I'd legitimately forgotten about that. Thank you for correcting me, Mephisto. Seems like they both took inspiration from Expedition's take on the Vistani and saw an opportunity to bring back the 3e canon of the Lightfoots, who had tried to shake off the "clearly a hobbit" stigma by being a culture of caravan-dwelling nomads.

Honestly, I can't really blame them too much; I always thought the Vistani as implemented in Ravenloft 2e and 3e were one of the setting's poorer choices for lore, simply because there's such a blatant clash between what is clearly a fantasy counterpart culture of real life Romani and their intended role as one of the great mysteries of the Demiplane of Dread...

Anyway, so are Domains of Dread and Van Richten's Guide to the Witch the first time that the Churches of Ezra and Hala mentioned in Ravenloft canon? Or had they appeared in other sources - modules, adventures in Dungeon, etc - before making it there, similarly to how Valachan began as an adventure in Dungeon #50 before being canonized in... what was it, Domains of Dread?

[Mephisto of the FoS]

Honestly, I can't really blame them too much; I always thought the Vistani as implemented in Ravenloft 2e and 3e were one of the setting's poorer choices for lore, simply because there's such a blatant clash between what is clearly a fantasy counterpart culture of real life Romani and their intended role as one of the great mysteries of the Demiplane of Dread...

I see what you mean but I disagree. Ravenloft was all about making fantasy counterparts from real cultures or pop culture. If the Vistani were portrayed in a racist way such as in Curse of Strahd I agree but in most Ravenloft products they are not used with a black and white thinking. In most if not all Ravenloft novels the Vistani are portrayed as the usual targets of racism as the Roma are in reality. The novels makes someone sympathise the Vistani unless they are some evil character that usually ends up becoming a dakling, and Vistani curses seem to be justified in cruel world like Ravenloft ere there is no other justice for the Vistani.

Anyway, so are Domains of Dread and Van Richten's Guide to the Witch the first time that the Churches of Ezra and Hala mentioned in Ravenloft canon? Or had they appeared in other sources - modules, adventures in Dungeon, etc - before making it there, similarly to how Valachan began as an adventure in Dungeon #50 before being canonized in... what was it, Domains of Dread?

Yes none of these two religions existed before Domains of Dread.

similarly to how Valachan began as an adventure in Dungeon #50 before being canonized in... what was it, Domains of Dread?

Well Valachan is canon since the black box just Urik was not detailed as some other darklords were, but the black box had a lot of info missing anyway. Von Kharkov's stats and background were first published in Darklords in August 1991, Felkovic's Cat adventure from Dungeon Magazine # 50 was published in 1994.

[Hell_Born]

I see what you mean but I disagree. Ravenloft was all about making fantasy counterparts from real cultures or pop culture. If the Vistani were portrayed in a racist way such as in Curse of Strahd I agree but in most Ravenloft products they are not used with a black and white thinking. In most if not all Ravenloft novels the Vistani are portrayed as the usual targets of racism as the Roma are in reality. The novels makes someone sympathise the Vistani unless they are some evil character that usually ends up becoming a dakling, and Vistani curses seem to be justified in cruel world like Ravenloft were there is no other justice for the Vistani.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think that the Vistani are/were racist. My problem has always been that I don't think the two "aspects" of them really gel together. The original Vistani from I6 make perfect sense. Heck, even their depiction in Realms of Terror, where they're less explicitly powerful and mystical than they would become in later sources, isn't bad. But trying to present the Vistani as so special and mysterious and mystical just feels wrong when they are so clearly spelled out in other aspects as being perfectly normal people. They look and feel too human for the whole "mysterious agents of the Dark Powers" angle to make sense to me. Vistani as a culture who have both an inherently higher affinity for magic and greater knowledge of the Demiplane and who leverage those advantages whilst still not being outside of the grasp of the Dark Powers entirely? That would have worked. But TSR tried to have their cake and eat it too, and the Vistani just end up incoherent as a result of it.

Also, I find the "Vistani are beyond good and evil" thing to be laughably bad writing because they have been shown in Ravenloft canon to be no better than the "giorgio" they so look down upon when it comes to being petty, cruel, and selfish. Look at Jacqueline Montari or Erasmus van Richten; that's not "beyond good and evil", that's not "god moves in mysterious ways", that's "people are scumbags". And I wouldn't have a problem with it if the lore would at least admit it.

To put things in perspective: I think Elminster has objectively better writing than the Vistani do. But I didn't start this thread to complain about the Vistani, I started it to get references to where they appear in canon, as with Ezra and Hala.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

IMHO, laying out the different tasques/tribes of Vistani in VRGttV went a long way toward reconciling the different portrayals of vistani, and let us have our cake and eat it too. You met some mysterious, all-knowing, existing-out-of-time Vistani? Those must have been the Manusa. Your son was stolen by vistani and sold to a vampire? Those were Corvara. Met a tribe of just regular folks being persecuted because they dress elaborately and have brightly painted wagons? Maybe that's some Kamii or Equaar.

In any case, Mephisto did a good job of laying out the 1st appearances and fleshing out of the groups you are interested in, but I just wanted to point out that Mistipedia is a good place to find that kind of info.

For example:
https://fraternityofshadows.com/wiki/Ca ... ch_of_Ezra

Take a look down at the bottom of the pages for reference links, and info from the old Ravenloft Catalogue. (not always complete or up to date, but will give a good idea of where the info came from and which one was first.)

If ever in doubt about real-world publishing chronology, the Mistipedia Release Timeline is fairly complete:
https://fraternityofshadows.com/wiki/Release_Timeline

[Mephisto of the FoS]

IMHO, laying out the different tasques/tribes of Vistani in VRGttV went a long way toward reconciling the different portrayals of vistani, and let us have our cake and eat it too. You met some mysterious, all-knowing, existing-out-of-time Vistani? Those must have been the Manusa. Your son was stolen by vistani and sold to a vampire? Those were Corvara. Met a tribe of just regular folks being persecuted because they dress elaborately and have brightly painted wagons? Maybe that's some Kamii or Equaar.

I agree with this, and don't forget that in pop culture sometimes Roma are portrayed as having mystical powers, I believe the Vistani concept just augmented that element and separated them from the "gypsies" found in earlier DnD editions and worlds.

“Gypsy” is a derogatory, disparaging term and for many is considered an insult. I understand that we speak of earlier editions that writers at the time probably didn't have knowledge of this, so I am just mention this so we can be cautious of what we write.

Just to be clear I am saying this in advance without implicating anything written so far.

[alhoon]

I'd legitimately forgotten about that. Thank you for correcting me, Mephisto.

Good for you.

[tomokaicho]

“Gypsy” is a derogatory, disparaging term and for many is considered an insult. I understand that we speak of earlier editions that writers at the time probably didn't have knowledge of this, so I am just mention this so we can be cautious of what we write.

Its not a matter of "having knowledge" at all. No one had the knowledge because "Roma" is a neologism dating back from the 1970s and isn't what the itinerant traveler groups of Eastern Europe ("Gypsies") called themselves either. So if you go back enough years, saying "Roma" would likely make people think you are talking about the city of Rome, Romans or Romanians. The "Roma" themselves likely wouldn't know what you are talking about. So the word "Gypsy" became derogatory because people kept on saying it is derogatory. This is an ongoing process with many words in the English language.