Questions & Thoughts on Avonleigh

[Mephisto of the FoS]

I own “Howls in the Night” but haven’t ran it. Is it good? My PCs will be going to Mordent sometime in the next few months and I like to plan ahead

I had ran it in the 90s combining a person from the party I used to play with with a new one I was trying. The combination didn't work well and in general the atmosphere was a bit messed up. They ended up ridiculing the bog hounds as "doggies". You can read this review which I don't disagree with. https://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/cla ... _452.phtml

Since back then I didn't have much info on Mordent, since it was before WotC had a free downloading of House on Gryphon Hill in their site, I made a poor description of Mordent to my game's players. I believe with the info from 3e Gazetteers the DM can focus on stories of the vanished aristocratic families, only to have the players discover that one has not vanished yet.

In general I believe it needs some spicing (like ghost stories etc) and more encounters/events before getting into the adventure to have the adventurers be more inclined to be involved to participate in the search of people lost in the Great Moor. There is a major mistake in the adventure, having a family going to Mordent from Dementlieu before that domain (Dementlieu) even existed. This problem can be easily fixed by a suggestion from John W. Mangrum's timeline that Ann become Anna Clause (instead of Ann Campbell) and that the Campbells become the Clauses from Krezk in Barovia.

[Speedwagon]

I own “Howls in the Night” but haven’t ran it. Is it good? My PCs will be going to Mordent sometime in the next few months and I like to plan ahead

I had ran it in the 90s combining a person from the party I used to play with with a new one I was trying. The combination didn't work well and in general the atmosphere was a bit messed up. They ended up ridiculing the bog hounds as "doggies". You can read this review which I don't disagree with. https://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/cla ... _452.phtml

Since back then I didn't have much info on Mordent, since it was before WotC had a free downloading of House on Gryphon Hill in their site, I made a poor description of Mordent to my game's players. I believe with the info from 3e Gazetteers the DM can focus on stories of the vanished aristocratic families, only to have the players discover that one has not vanished yet.

In general I believe it needs some spicing (like ghost stories etc) and more encounters/events before getting into the adventure to have the adventurers be more inclined to be involved to participate in the search of people lost in the Great Moor. There is a major mistake in the adventure, having a family going to Mordent from Dementlieu before that domain (Dementlieu) even existed. This problem can be easily fixed by a suggestion from John W. Mangrum's timeline that Ann become Anna Clause (instead of Ann Campbell) and that the Campbells become the Clauses from Krezk in Barovia.

That's very helpful! Thanks, Mephisto! So from what I'm gathering, the 3e Gazetteer write-up on Mordent will help bring some life to the adventure by filling in the blanks that the module itself leaves on Mordent, while also giving a bit more time and reason for adventurers to be inclined to go out into the Great Moor (along with some patches to mistakes-of-canon). I can definitely work with that then!

Anyway, back to Avonleigh...

[High Priest Mikhal]

The fenhounds in Denizens of Darkness/Dread for 3.0/3.5 are based on the hound from The Hound of the Baskervilles, which itself was based on the black shuck of Celtic folklore. They hunt down those who have failed powers checks in a swamp, marsh, or fen and seek to destroy them.

But the Ravenloft product that mirrors The Hound of the Baskervilles best is Howls in the Night set in Mordent.

I have to admit I'm not familiar with that one. But then I'm not familiar with a lot of things outside of 3.x other than The Nighmare Lands Boxed Set, the Red Box Set, and the Grand Conjunction modules.

[IanFordam]

If I follow the timeline correctly:

• In 611BC Ebonbane and Shadowborn Manor are drawn into the Land of Mists. Very shortly beforehand, Lady Kateri's sword Corona is destroyed.
• In 615BC Elena Faith-Hold and Nidala are drawn into the Mists.
• In 626BC Alexei and Ferran Shadowborn are claimed by Ravenloft, and they confront Ebonbane in Shadowborn Manor. Lady Kateri's sword Corona is destroyed. After Alexei does his Lodestone Paladin thing, Ferran goes back to the actual Great Kingdom of Avonleigh. Subsequently, Alexei founds the second incarnation of the Circle.
• In 646BC Morgoroth and Tergeron Manor are drawn into the Land of Mists.

Some questions:

• When is Corona actually destroyed?
• Does Ferran Shadowborn really just ride out of Ravenloft?
• How does Alexei Shadowborn found the second Circle if he's trapped within Shadowborn Manor?

Creative reconciliations welcome, although I also recognize that I might just be overthinking these things.

[The Lesser Evil]

Speedwagon's Ramblings About Avonleigh

Devonshire Pond and Wyndham Lake
Both these bodies of water are noted for being highly filthy and, in the case of Devonshire Pond, of having noxious fumes that bubble from its depths that are released into the surroundings. It's toxic enough that Devonshire Pond even has frogs that have specifically adapted to the toxicity there and are similarly poisonous as a result. Perhaps, at least in the case of Devonshire Pond, there's some sort of reason why the toxicity is so high?

To combine this with suggestions of Creatures of Avonleigh, the noxious fumes might suggest the presence of a nukelavee. Normally a sea creature though, might need some explanation for why it ended up in the bottom of a pond/lake.

[Wolfglide of the Fraternity]

A toxic pond would also be a good place to put the aquatic oozes called reekmurks from the Fiend Folio (page 18). They tend to reside in the ocean depths and in underground lakes, and they don't tolerate sunlight, but they seem thematically appropriate.

[Speedwagon]

If I follow the timeline correctly:

• In 611BC Ebonbane and Shadowborn Manor are drawn into the Land of Mists. Very shortly beforehand, Lady Kateri's sword Corona is destroyed.
• In 615BC Elena Faith-Hold and Nidala are drawn into the Mists.
• In 626BC Alexei and Ferran Shadowborn are claimed by Ravenloft, and they confront Ebonbane in Shadowborn Manor. Lady Kateri's sword Corona is destroyed. After Alexei does his Lodestone Paladin thing, Ferran goes back to the actual Great Kingdom of Avonleigh. Subsequently, Alexei founds the second incarnation of the Circle.
• In 646BC Morgoroth and Tergeron Manor are drawn into the Land of Mists.

Some questions:

• When is Corona actually destroyed?
• Does Ferran Shadowborn really just ride out of Ravenloft?
• How does Alexei Shadowborn found the second Circle if he's trapped within Shadowborn Manor?

Creative reconciliations welcome, although I also recognize that I might just be overthinking these things.

From what I recall (and with the help of RR1 Darklords), "With the body of the monk nothing more than a puppet under the control of the evil Ebonbane, the sword instructed the monk to carry it to Shadowborn Manor. When the monk was received by Lady Shadowborn, he explained that the workers at the monastery had found this sword and wanted her advice on what to do with it. When Lady Shadowborn saw the unholy weapon, her natural ability to sense all things evil warned her of the treachery. The battle that followed was magnificent. With every ounce of faith that she could muster, the aging paladin fought off the influences of the weapon. Time and time again, the animated sword tried to run Lady Shadowborn through, but always her holy sword turned it aside. In the end, however, Ebonbane was too much for her. Calling on all the power of the dark dimension that had spawned it, Ebonbane delivered a final titanic blow that shattered Lady Shadowborn's holy avenger." (page 30). So we know now that Kateri's sword was Corona. However, these paragraphs in Ebonbane's backstory in RR1 Darklords contradicts the mention of the sword shattering in "Shadowborn" (which I do not own so I can't verify that of my own accord). One creative reconciliation would be that Ebonbane tried to reforge Corona into a new vessel for him, but that didn't work out (he's spiteful enough to try) despite his control over sharp and pointy things in Shadowborn Manor?

As for Alexei Shadowborn founding the second Circle, that one confuses me too. I had assumed that Alexei told Ferran to create a new iteration of the Circle after Ferran left him behind, but that's not really the case: the Circle that Elena and Kateri were a part of was still around, Ferran just became the leader of that order. That original Circle was unfortunately killed en masse by Morgoroth when they went to Tergeron Manor after Ferran Shadowborn went to go see Morgoroth (after Lambert went to go kill Morgoroth and we know how this all played out). But somehow, he made a new Circle. In the Phantasmal Forest. Trapped in suspended animation. As Mistipedia says, "Alexi Shadowborn formed a new Circle, now known as the Knights of the Shadows. These Knights were not all paladins, and adopted as their symbol an eclipsed sun, based on the sun symbol of the original Circle. They wear distinctive gold and black cloaks, so as to hide from their enemies, but be seen by those who need them. To join, one must have suffered a great loss, and swear to protect a group of helpless people of the Knight's choosing. The Knights gather for a mandatory yearly pilgrimage in Nidala." So I can only think that maybe, once again, Morgoroth had something to do with this? It would tie him even closer to the Cluster but it also feels somewhat "too" nice for Morgoroth to do (already he provides the crystal coffin that seals Alexei and the Four Elemental Keys to renew said coffin's binding so any further collaboration with the Knights of the Shadows/Circle 2.0 is a bit hard to believe (maybe my idea of Ferran Shadowborn's skeleton roaming around can be put into place here again; he could've found Alexei and tried to make another Circle on his behalf while keeping out of Morgoroth's line of sight).

And finally, for Ferran: I don't own "Shadowborn" but from what Mistipedia says, "Ferran accompanied Alexi into Shadowborn Manor for his confrontation with Ebonbane, and escaped back to the Great Kingdom after that adventure ended." (pages 310-312 of "Shadowborn"). So...yeah. He just, straight-up, rode out of Ravenloft. The only reason why this isn't even more incredulous than it already is, is that John W. Mangrum mentioned on these forums (and also in the Shadowlands "Domain of the Month" part of the Fraternity of Shadows website, where "The Vault" section is, that there used to be Mistways between the Phantasmal Forest and the Great Kingdom. As Mr. Mangrum says "The Phantasmal Forest is trackless and directionless; getting lost is the norm. It used to lead back to the Great Kingdom on Kateri Shadowborn's homeworld, but those planar pathways closed as Ebonbane wiped out the last remnants of her legacy." So it can be justified, if only somewhat.

[IanFordam]

Over the years I have managed to find a copy of Shadowborn, so I thought maybe I'd do a bit of reading to hunt down some answers to my own questions...

If I follow the timeline correctly:

• In 611BC Ebonbane and Shadowborn Manor are drawn into the Land of Mists. Very shortly beforehand, Lady Kateri's sword Corona is destroyed.
• In 615BC Elena Faith-Hold and Nidala are drawn into the Mists.
• In 626BC Alexei and Ferran Shadowborn are claimed by Ravenloft, and they confront Ebonbane in Shadowborn Manor. Lady Kateri's sword Corona is destroyed. After Alexei does his Lodestone Paladin thing, Ferran goes back to the actual Great Kingdom of Avonleigh. Subsequently, Alexei founds the second incarnation of the Circle.
• In 646BC Morgoroth and Tergeron Manor are drawn into the Land of Mists.

Some questions:

• When is Corona actually destroyed?
• Does Ferran Shadowborn really just ride out of Ravenloft?
• How does Alexei Shadowborn found the second Circle if he's trapped within Shadowborn Manor?

Creative reconciliations welcome, although I also recognize that I might just be overthinking these things.

From what I recall (and with the help of RR1 Darklords), "With the body of the monk nothing more than a puppet under the control of the evil Ebonbane, the sword instructed the monk to carry it to Shadowborn Manor. When the monk was received by Lady Shadowborn, he explained that the workers at the monastery had found this sword and wanted her advice on what to do with it. When Lady Shadowborn saw the unholy weapon, her natural ability to sense all things evil warned her of the treachery. The battle that followed was magnificent. With every ounce of faith that she could muster, the aging paladin fought off the influences of the weapon. Time and time again, the animated sword tried to run Lady Shadowborn through, but always her holy sword turned it aside. In the end, however, Ebonbane was too much for her. Calling on all the power of the dark dimension that had spawned it, Ebonbane delivered a final titanic blow that shattered Lady Shadowborn's holy avenger." (page 30). So we know now that Kateri's sword was Corona. However, these paragraphs in Ebonbane's backstory in RR1 Darklords contradicts the mention of the sword shattering in "Shadowborn" (which I do not own so I can't verify that of my own accord). One creative reconciliation would be that Ebonbane tried to reforge Corona into a new vessel for him, but that didn't work out (he's spiteful enough to try) despite his control over sharp and pointy things in Shadowborn Manor?

In the early pages of Shadowborn, Corona is given to Alexi by Lady and Lord Shadowborn, his aunt and uncle. From page 27:

"No one has worn his blade in over fifteen years," said Lord Vincent. "Not since Kateri died with it in her hand." He turned to Alexi. "We have kept Corona for you these many years..."

By implication, Corona's return has nothing to do with Ebonbane. Perhaps Corona has been reforged by the same Eastern smith who originally forged it. That act, even more than the original forging, might qualify the smith as a pearl for Ebonbane to collect. I think you've mentioned that possibility already, so here's me saying that I buy it now.

As for Alexei Shadowborn founding the second Circle, that one confuses me too. I had assumed that Alexei told Ferran to create a new iteration of the Circle after Ferran left him behind, but that's not really the case: the Circle that Elena and Kateri were a part of was still around, Ferran just became the leader of that order. That original Circle was unfortunately killed en masse by Morgoroth when they went to Tergeron Manor after Ferran Shadowborn went to go see Morgoroth (after Lambert went to go kill Morgoroth and we know how this all played out). But somehow, he made a new Circle. In the Phantasmal Forest. Trapped in suspended animation. As Mistipedia says, "Alexi Shadowborn formed a new Circle, now known as the Knights of the Shadows. These Knights were not all paladins, and adopted as their symbol an eclipsed sun, based on the sun symbol of the original Circle. They wear distinctive gold and black cloaks, so as to hide from their enemies, but be seen by those who need them. To join, one must have suffered a great loss, and swear to protect a group of helpless people of the Knight's choosing. The Knights gather for a mandatory yearly pilgrimage in Nidala." So I can only think that maybe, once again, Morgoroth had something to do with this? It would tie him even closer to the Cluster but it also feels somewhat "too" nice for Morgoroth to do (already he provides the crystal coffin that seals Alexei and the Four Elemental Keys to renew said coffin's binding so any further collaboration with the Knights of the Shadows/Circle 2.0 is a bit hard to believe (maybe my idea of Ferran Shadowborn's skeleton roaming around can be put into place here again; he could've found Alexei and tried to make another Circle on his behalf while keeping out of Morgoroth's line of sight).

Regarding Alexi's founding of the second Circle, let's check out page 312 of Shadowborn:

"Perhaps..." Alexi stared unseeing at the dark landscape around him. "Perhaps here especially they need paladins of the light. A Circle..."

See! He founded the second Circle! Just by thinking about it! And mentioning it once!

To be slightly less snarky, at the end of the novel Alexi is not yet hanging out in a crystal coffin in suspended animation. Perhaps he has a year before he needs to return to Shadowborn Manor to ensure that Ebonbane remains locked in his body. During that year he could form the Circle. That is, the second Circle. Which would then exist twenty years before the destruction of the first Circle. Which makes my head hurt, but there you have it.

My other thought was that perhaps Ferran has a child whom he names after his heroic older brother. Perhaps that Alexi is the one who is drawn into the Shadowlands and forms the second Circle.

And finally, for Ferran: I don't own "Shadowborn" but from what Mistipedia says, "Ferran accompanied Alexi into Shadowborn Manor for his confrontation with Ebonbane, and escaped back to the Great Kingdom after that adventure ended." (pages 310-312 of "Shadowborn"). So...yeah. He just, straight-up, rode out of Ravenloft. The only reason why this isn't even more incredulous than it already is, is that John W. Mangrum mentioned on these forums (and also in the Shadowlands "Domain of the Month" part of the Fraternity of Shadows website, where "The Vault" section is, that there used to be Mistways between the Phantasmal Forest and the Great Kingdom. As Mr. Mangrum says "The Phantasmal Forest is trackless and directionless; getting lost is the norm. It used to lead back to the Great Kingdom on Kateri Shadowborn's homeworld, but those planar pathways closed as Ebonbane wiped out the last remnants of her legacy." So it can be justified, if only somewhat.

Honestly, Mangrum's handwave about Mistways back to the Great Kingdom of Avonleigh does make me feel better, if only because that implies the same issue bothered him.

From page 312:

He stood motionless, watching solemnly as the ebon charger, followed by Dasmaria's proud steed, carried his brother away...

Then they were gone, swallowed up by the shadows.

Were those shadows the Mistway? Hey, it wouldn't be the most outrageous thing that Ravenloft retcons have convinced me to accept.

[Jeremy16]

The problem with the Shadowborn Cluster, at least the way I see it, is that Elena Faith-hold sucks all of the air out of the room. (Don't worry, I'll present some solutions to this issue below.) By far, she's the biggest personality in the cluster and the first one that PCs are likely to ever hear about or encounter. Therefore, almost any adventure hook, dread possibility, or NPC will at least be tangentially related to Elena in some way, shape, or form. Ebonbane is a great idea (basically a cursed Excalibur), but its power is nerfed by the fact that its influence doesn't extend very far beyond the borders of Shadowborn Manor. Morgoroth in Avonleigh suffers from the same defect.

So where does that leave us? We have a cluster with three darklords: One fallen human paladin, a sword animated by a demon that is trapped in the body of its own son (a result of coupling with its greatest enemy), and an evil necromancer whose body was destroyed but spirit now inhabits his former manor home and rules over a large phantasmal forest. (Plus, Addar's Glade if Mangrum's ideas from the forums are accepted as canon.)

I find his “pearls in the oil” concept very interesting, and with a little brainstorming I think we could add a lot more characters who played some bit role in Kateri Shadowborn's life and have been drawn into the Demiplane by Ebonbane.

What about the blacksmith that forged her sword Corona? Perhaps he has been trapped in a small pocket domain somewhere deep in the forest, forever toiling to recreate his one true masterwork piece just to watch it break after its first test? Maybe Ebonbane pulled in one of the many monstrous tribes that Kateri famously fought against, just to taunt the paladin's ghost who must watch impotently as they tramp around freely while she is ironically imprisoned in her own manor.

I myself came up with the idea of taking one of her squires and making hima darklord. The squire could have had an overwhelming ambition to become a great knight like his master, but never really had the talent to make it happen. Eventually he got so fed up with his failures that he made a dark pact with demons (perhaps even a disguised Ebonbane) to get what he wanted. But, instead of getting his heart's desire he was tricked and sucked into Ravenloft. Now, he is a disembodied spirit that roams a small, isolated village. Whenever adventurers come through, everyone in the village offers to hire out their services as a squire so they can escape from their dull lives. If someone does manage to convince a hero to take them on as a help, the original squire's spirit possesses that person. Alas, his darklord curse prevents him from leaving, and when he crosses the domain border in his stolen body, his spirit is flung back and dispersed throughout the domain only to reform a short time later with no memory of what came before.

Eh, it may not be that great of a concept, but you get the idea. I'll add more later when I get time...

[IanFordam]

I myself came up with the idea of taking one of her squires and making hima darklord. The squire could have had an overwhelming ambition to become a great knight like his master, but never really had the talent to make it happen. Eventually he got so fed up with his failures that he made a dark pact with demons (perhaps even a disguised Ebonbane) to get what he wanted. But, instead of getting his heart's desire he was tricked and sucked into Ravenloft. Now, he is a disembodied spirit that roams a small, isolated village. Whenever adventurers come through, everyone in the village offers to hire out their services as a squire so they can escape from their dull lives. If someone does manage to convince a hero to take them on as a help, the original squire's spirit possesses that person. Alas, his darklord curse prevents him from leaving, and when he crosses the domain border in his stolen body, his spirit is flung back and dispersed throughout the domain only to reform a short time later with no memory of what came before.

Upon a first read, the squire's curse (his inability to leave the boundaries of this village) doesn't feel appropriately darklord-y and tragic to me. Perhaps he's not quite a darklord at all or at most some sort of demilord. After all, if he's not bound to the village, I would be more inclined to give him an opportunity to actually serve as a squire for one of the PCs, only to choose to double-cross that PC in the end. ("Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!")

Just my own quick thoughts. Take 'em or leave 'em as you please.

[Speedwagon]

The problem with the Shadowborn Cluster, at least the way I see it, is that Elena Faith-hold sucks all of the air out of the room. (Don't worry, I'll present some solutions to this issue below.) By far, she's the biggest personality in the cluster and the first one that PCs are likely to ever hear about or encounter. Therefore, almost any adventure hook, dread possibility, or NPC will at least be tangentially related to Elena in some way, shape, or form. Ebonbane is a great idea (basically a cursed Excalibur), but its power is nerfed by the fact that its influence doesn't extend very far beyond the borders of Shadowborn Manor. Morgoroth in Avonleigh suffers from the same defect.

As much as I love Elena, you're absolutely on the ball with that analysis. It's no wonder then, that she has the largest domain in the Shadowlands, and it's the one domain that actually holds villages and people and other things that aren't directly tied to the Shadowborn family's legacy or Elena's own rise and fall (much as how, despite domains being reflections of their Darklords, there's still wiggle room for other adventures in the more expanded domains---not every Darkon or Borca adventure needs to involve Azalin Rex or the Dark Twins, for instance). However, on a perhaps unrelated note, I also think that Nidala NEEDS more expansion on the smaller-scale: if Elena pushes the Banemaw button whenever there's too much "heresy" in a town for her liking, just how many towns are left in Nidala? Touraine is a big city (20,000 according to Islands of Terror and the 3e Ravenloft Campaign Setting Sourcebook) and everyone else (10,200 from the overall population of 30,200 given in the prior two sources mentioned above) lives in the countryside in smaller villages and hamlets and small trading towns. But it can't just be Touraine and flyover country; Falkovnia has a bunch of settlements, Kartakass and Dementlieu and Borca do to. So why shouldn't Nidala?

But back to Avonleigh and the Phantasmal Forest...

So where does that leave us? We have a cluster with three darklords: One fallen human paladin, a sword animated by a demon that is trapped in the body of its own son (a result of coupling with its greatest enemy), and an evil necromancer whose body was destroyed but spirit now inhabits his former manor home and rules over a large phantasmal forest. (Plus, Addar's Glade if Mangrum's ideas from the forums are accepted as canon.)

Yup, though there have been some changes since the Cluster came about. For one, Morgoroth got his body back but Aurora Shadowborn is still asleep in his manor, so there' a semi-canon ending to A Light in the Belfry in that regard. Two, Morgoroth is heavily implied in the Book of Shadows framing fiction to have been working with the Knights of the Shadows (under Gondegal's leadership) once a year to craft special items that maintain Alexi Shadowborn's seal over Ebonbane. John W. Mangrum once described Morgoroth as being the third-party in the two-person war between Elena and Ebonbane, so I think that there's something to work with on that front. Morgoroth is no longer nearly as incapacitated as he once was (he has a body now so he should be able to leave his manorial grounds and go to Wyndham Lake or Schrappcroft Marsh or walk the old highway) and has contacts to Gondegal, who is a major player within the Shadowlands. I think the hard part with Morgoroth is figuring out what he does on every other day of the year that isn't a visit from Gondegal and his few good men, which is why I threw out a few ideas in the original post of this thread.

And Ebonbane can be made much more prominent through the "pearls in the oil" idea that Mangrum proposed.

I find his “pearls in the oil” concept very interesting, and with a little brainstorming I think we could add a lot more characters who played some bit role in Kateri Shadowborn's life and have been drawn into the Demiplane by Ebonbane.

What about the blacksmith that forged her sword Corona? Perhaps he has been trapped in a small pocket domain somewhere deep in the forest, forever toiling to recreate his one true masterwork piece just to watch it break after its first test? Maybe Ebonbane pulled in one of the many monstrous tribes that Kateri famously fought against, just to taunt the paladin's ghost who must watch impotently as they tramp around freely while she is ironically imprisoned in her own manor.

I myself came up with the idea of taking one of her squires and making hima darklord. The squire could have had an overwhelming ambition to become a great knight like his master, but never really had the talent to make it happen. Eventually he got so fed up with his failures that he made a dark pact with demons (perhaps even a disguised Ebonbane) to get what he wanted. But, instead of getting his heart's desire he was tricked and sucked into Ravenloft. Now, he is a disembodied spirit that roams a small, isolated village. Whenever adventurers come through, everyone in the village offers to hire out their services as a squire so they can escape from their dull lives. If someone does manage to convince a hero to take them on as a help, the original squire's spirit possesses that person. Alas, his darklord curse prevents him from leaving, and when he crosses the domain border in his stolen body, his spirit is flung back and dispersed throughout the domain only to reform a short time later with no memory of what came before.

Eh, it may not be that great of a concept, but you get the idea. I'll add more later when I get time...

I like the concept! And I'm also happy to say that there've been some ideas proposed before on a similar train of thought, in this thread here: https://www.fraternityofshadows.com/for ... hp?t=11122 (I forgot that I made this thread last year, so if this feels like a shameless plug, please know that it isn't and I apologize if it looks that way). And similar thoughts on the Phantasmal Forest were used in hidarejimi's Ravenloft Reincarnated--the Shadowlands post here: https://www.fraternityofshadows.com/for ... st#p252416.

So I think that, at least through the "pearls in the oil", Ebonbane has a way to interact with the Shadowlands in a broader and more meaningful sense than his prior state of being stuck inside Shadowborn Manor (and within Alexi Shadowborn at that), but now there needs to come some way for the three Darklords to step on one another's toes more directly and indirectly. Ebonbane most likely wants to draw Elena Faith-hold into his collection somehow, and Elena views Ebonbane (rightly, for once) as the great evil that doomed her bestie Kateri Shadowborn and threatens all that is good and holy in the world. I know that GonzoRon, in his campaign's visit to Nidala, had NPCs like Theokos be extensions of Ebonbane to further show how much the fiend wants to meddle in Elena's affairs and draw her into darkness. Meanwhile Morgoroth collaborates with the Knights of the Shadows to keep Ebonbane sealed, as Morgoroth knows that Ebonbane would certainly go after his beloved Aurora Shadowborn if he were ever freed.

So those are the more indirect ways that they tussle. But do they do more? I've suggested already the idea of Morgoroth and Ebonbane being in a metaphysical "domain tug-of-war" regarding the Phantasmal Forest, as well as the idea of Morgoroth reanimating the original Knights of the Circle he killed as his own unholy knights of the round table, but how do Morgoroth and Elena interact? What else are the three doing that isn't stepping on one another's plans or stewing in their curses, impotently?

[Jeremy16]

I like the concept! And I'm also happy to say that there've been some ideas proposed before on a similar train of thought, in this thread here: https://www.fraternityofshadows.com/for ... hp?t=11122 (I forgot that I made this thread last year, so if this feels like a shameless plug, please know that it isn't and I apologize if it looks that way). And similar thoughts on the Phantasmal Forest were used in hidarejimi's Ravenloft Reincarnated--the Shadowlands post here: https://www.fraternityofshadows.com/for ... st#p252416.

That is a great list of locations and demi-lords! That's exactly what I was talking about, and I will refrain from making more suggestions along those lines because it looks like the forum has it pretty well covered. I will, however, continue on in my musings about the cluster as a whole...

All of the darklords and domains in this cluster, of course, have one thing in common – they all share a relationship with the valiant and legendary paladin known as Kateri Shadowborn. Besides that slim connecting thread, however, there's a few different approaches one can take when developing monsters and NPCs to flesh out the place.

While there's clearly some Arthurian overtones, I think the idea that this cluster is a a dark reflection of the King Arthur mythos is over-emphasized. Yes, the Knights of the Circle are a good fill-in for the Knights of the Roundtable and Ebonbane is clearly a twisted Excalubir, but that is pretty much it. Where's the Merlin stand-in? Or Guinevere and Lancelot? Where's the mechanism to launch quests and right wrongs? We have the trappings of such things, such as castles and knights, but no monsters or magics that would flesh out such a leitmotif. If one were to go down this path, I think the Shadow Fey should be brought in to act as instigators; the Phantasmal Forest is just begging to be populated by such strange and mysterious creatures.

Speaking of which, another interesting aspect of this cluster is its worship of Belenus, which could potentially tie it to Tepest. I believe Tepest, as it was originally described, was viewed as a place where fairytales came to life, with forests full of witches and goblins and other "wee beasties" that the general population feared. But, canonically that wasn't the way it developed. Maybe it was too small for the type of epic quests that fairytales are known for so that concept was dropped in favor of the witch mania angle. So, why not pick it up and transplant that dark fairytale vibe to Nidala, which is a much larger land and can fit those kinds of stories better?

The third, and I believe most interesting prospect, would be to turn this cluster something that is more directly focused on medieval France (the tie-in here being Elena as an evil version of Joan de Arc). Let's face it, most of Ravenloft is based on diverse cultures' folklore through an English lens. Even the more Fench domains of the Core (such Dementlieu and Richemulot) only scratch the surface of what can be taken from France's history and legends.

I know we have some French contributors on the forum, and feel they would be better to address that stuff more accurately than anything I could come up with, but I do have one thing I want to throw into the mix. Has anyone ever brought up Clark Ashton Smith's Averoigne stories when discussing this cluster? Because I think it would be a great fit. His tales focus on a fictional medieval French province inhabited by several eldritch wizards and weird monsters. Their vibe has a touch of Lovecraft thrown in with the more conventional swords and sorcery tropes and I think would be interesting to see that thrown into the mix.

Any other themes I'm missing or that others think could be included in this Cluster?

[Speedwagon]

I like the concept! And I'm also happy to say that there've been some ideas proposed before on a similar train of thought, in this thread here: https://www.fraternityofshadows.com/for ... hp?t=11122 (I forgot that I made this thread last year, so if this feels like a shameless plug, please know that it isn't and I apologize if it looks that way). And similar thoughts on the Phantasmal Forest were used in hidarejimi's Ravenloft Reincarnated--the Shadowlands post here: https://www.fraternityofshadows.com/for ... st#p252416.

That is a great list of locations and demi-lords! That's exactly what I was talking about, and I will refrain from making more suggestions along those lines because it looks like the forum has it pretty well covered. I will, however, continue on in my musings about the cluster as a whole...

Thank you! I have TheLesserEvil and GonzoRon to thank and credit for quite a few of these ideas!

All of the darklords and domains in this cluster, of course, have one thing in common – they all share a relationship with the valiant and legendary paladin known as Kateri Shadowborn. Besides that slim connecting thread, however, there's a few different approaches one can take when developing monsters and NPCs to flesh out the place.

While there's clearly some Arthurian overtones, I think the idea that this cluster is a a dark reflection of the King Arthur mythos is over-emphasized. Yes, the Knights of the Circle are a good fill-in for the Knights of the Roundtable and Ebonbane is clearly a twisted Excalubir, but that is pretty much it. Where's the Merlin stand-in? Or Guinevere and Lancelot? Where's the mechanism to launch quests and right wrongs? We have the trappings of such things, such as castles and knights, but no monsters or magics that would flesh out such a leitmotif. If one were to go down this path, I think the Shadow Fey should be brought in to act as instigators; the Phantasmal Forest is just begging to be populated by such strange and mysterious creatures.

While I'd personally say that Morgoroth is the evil Merlin and Lancelot is reflected by Sir Lambert, I totally get your point, Jeremy16. It's a slim connecting thread, and its better if the Shadowlands can be more than just "Dark Arthuriana" (though I like the idea and still want to play around and reference it).

I hadn't really considered the Shadow Fey as instigators! I was worried that too much of their activities would overshadow the 'human evil' at Elena Faithhold's core of her perverted belief in Belenus, but if they're used in moderation then I think they can bring that "dark fantasy" feel to the Shadowlands with a distinct and new coat of paint, so to speak. They would be a great mechanism to launch quests, and we have some idea that (good) creatures like brujas (from Van Richten's unpublished notes on witches & hags) canonically originate from the Shadowlands. I could also see Ebonbane and Morgoroth being annoyed by these "pests" in their woods.

And that's not mentioning both the fact that Lake Amenta can open into Nidala and the possibility that Gwydion or Prince Loht (or both) can use their Shadow Fey proxies to start talking to Ebonbane somehow!

Speaking of which, another interesting aspect of this cluster is its worship of Belenus, which could potentially tie it to Tepest. I believe Tepest, as it was originally described, was viewed as a place where fairytales came to life, with forests full of witches and goblins and other "wee beasties" that the general population feared. But, canonically that wasn't the way it developed. Maybe it was too small for the type of epic quests that fairytales are known for so that concept was dropped in favor of the witch mania angle. So, why not pick it up and transplant that dark fairytale vibe to Nidala, which is a much larger land and can fit those kinds of stories better?

Nidala's larger size and more organized military might also mean that they keep themselves in shape by handling threats from goblins and witches in the mountains and woods, with the Knight-Protector leading the charge (and saying that the enemies are all agents of "Banemaw").

Like I said above, I think that, so long as the "wee beasties" don't overshadow the 'human evil' of Elena Faithhold at the core of Nidala, then I think we're good. Of course there's now the added complexity of making sure that the tone and 'vibe' of Tepest and Nidala are distinct enough.

On another note, it's a damn shame that Nidala is connected only to Darkon through the Mists. While I can buy the idea of Nidalan missionaries crossing through Darkon to do work in Tepest, I'm not sure how "outward facing" Elena Faithhold is. I'd really want her to be, but I perpetually get the feeling from her of "I don't care about the heathen nations beyond the Mists, I want to keep Nidala a pure holy state of Belenus". I'd love for her to be willing to do more interactions with other lands (not saying she needs to launch a crusade) though.

The third, and I believe most interesting prospect, would be to turn this cluster something that is more directly focused on medieval France (the tie-in here being Elena as an evil version of Joan de Arc). Let's face it, most of Ravenloft is based on diverse cultures' folklore through an English lens. Even the more Fench domains of the Core (such Dementlieu and Richemulot) only scratch the surface of what can be taken from France's history and legends.

I know we have some French contributors on the forum, and feel they would be better to address that stuff more accurately than anything I could come up with, but I do have one thing I want to throw into the mix. Has anyone ever brought up Clark Ashton Smith's Averoigne stories when discussing this cluster? Because I think it would be a great fit. His tales focus on a fictional medieval French province inhabited by several eldritch wizards and weird monsters. Their vibe has a touch of Lovecraft thrown in with the more conventional swords and sorcery tropes and I think would be interesting to see that thrown into the mix.

I am a French contributor AND I've heard of Clark Ashton Smith's Averoigne stories. I've been planning on reading them for a while, but now it's at the top of my list! Especially since there's a city named "Touraine" in Averoigne, so I think that someone at TSR might've been interested in Clark Ashton Smith's work (especially with the striaght-up adaptation of Averoigne style stories with X2: Castle Amber).

Medieval France has a wealth of folklore and history to take inspiration from, so you're right that Dementlieu and Richemulot (both characterized as post-medieval lands) only scratch the surface of what can be taken from France's history and legends. The tarasque (no not that one), "les dames blanches", Jean l'Ours, the Lupeux, l'Ankou, and many more. These can give Nidala's "native horrors" a much different feel than the rest of the Dread Realms, but once again with the caveat that the 'human evil' remains in place. In Islands of Terror it's established that Nidala is a mostly peaceful land, at least east of the Theospine Mountains, thanks to Elena's vigilance leading to there being no natural threats (not even large natural predators like bears or wolves).

Aside from that, characterizing Elena as evil Joan of Arc is a pretty cool idea; not only are we diversifying from the "Dark Arthuriana" feel that the Shadowlands originally felt married to, but we're drawing on a new wealth of inspiration. So I definitely approve!

Any other themes I'm missing or that others think could be included in this Cluster?

Personally, if we're diversifying from the prior "Dark Arthuriana" and "dark fairytale" idea (I apologize if me repeating those terms is getting annoying), then why not look at medieval Spain as well? The Spanish Inquisition, tales of Don Quixote or El Cid, the presence of the church within Spanish society, all of those might be fun to implement. My only problem with the above suggestion is that, Nidala as written is a rather dreary place, with singing, dancing, jewelry, and other bans being in play, to the point that it makes Falkovnia look like a more fun autocracy to be in! And that clashes rather strongly with what one thinks of Spain, medieval or otherwise...

[IanFordam]

The third, and I believe most interesting prospect, would be to turn this cluster something that is more directly focused on medieval France (the tie-in here being Elena as an evil version of Joan de Arc). Let's face it, most of Ravenloft is based on diverse cultures' folklore through an English lens. Even the more Fench domains of the Core (such Dementlieu and Richemulot) only scratch the surface of what can be taken from France's history and legends.

My expertise in French matters is limited to being able to say Je ne parle pas francais, and that's about it. Even so, I really like the idea of a Ravenlofty Joan of Arc.

[Joël of the FoS]

I am a French contributor AND I've heard of Clark Ashton Smith's Averoigne stories. I've been planning on reading them for a while, but now it's at the top of my list! Especially since there's a city named "Touraine" in Averoigne, so I think that someone at TSR might've been interested in Clark Ashton Smith's work (especially with the striaght-up adaptation of Averoigne style stories with X2: Castle Amber).

Medieval France has a wealth of folklore and history to take inspiration from, so you're right that Dementlieu and Richemulot (both characterized as post-medieval lands) only scratch the surface of what can be taken from France's history and legends. The tarasque (no not that one), "les dames blanches", Jean l'Ours, the Lupeux, l'Ankou, and many more. These can give Nidala's "native horrors" a much different feel than the rest of the Dread Realms, but once again with the caveat that the 'human evil' remains in place. In Islands of Terror it's established that Nidala is a mostly peaceful land, at least east of the Theospine Mountains, thanks to Elena's vigilance leading to there being no natural threats (not even large natural predators like bears or wolves).

Ah? Bonjour!

The Beast of Gevaudan also screams Ravenloft.