Ivan as cousin of Ivana - link?

[Joël of the FoS]

I gave my players the Ivana Boritsi familly tree (from Black Box and additions from LotB).

Capture d’écran 2022-08-16 103848.jpg (29.67 KiB) Viewed 956 times

They asked me where is Ivan in that?

The same BB has a Dilisnya familly tree but there is no link whatsoever with the Dilisnya in the Boritsi's familly tree. Ivan' father (Boris Boritsi) doesn't appear on Ivana's familly tree.

So they are cousins, but how?

If it is that they share the same grand grand father, or similar, they are quite distant by a long stretch

Joël

[Mistmaster]

Boris Boritsi is Ivana's father. Ivan's Father is Camille ' s younger brother. That's the way I knew it.

[Catman Jim]

The 2nd Edition Domains of Dread hardcover book states:
"Boris Dilisnya, Ivan's father, grew up in Barovia. He married Stefania Septow, and they had a daughter, Kristina. In 684 a
distant cousin, Camille Dilisnya, became the darklord of Borca, so Ivan's family moved to that nearby domain.
Five years later, under a dark moon, Stefania bore a second child - a boy, Ivan, who was destined to become a darklord of
Dorvinia."

You will need to add these to the family tree.

[Joël of the FoS]

The 2nd Edition Domains of Dread hardcover book states:
"Boris Dilisnya, Ivan's father, grew up in Barovia. He married Stefania Septow, and they had a daughter, Kristina. In 684 a
distant cousin, Camille Dilisnya, became the darklord of Borca, so Ivan's family moved to that nearby domain.
Five years later, under a dark moon, Stefania bore a second child - a boy, Ivan, who was destined to become a darklord of
Dorvinia."

You will need to add these to the family tree.

Ok, so that's a very distant "cousin"

[Joël of the FoS]

Boris Boritsi is Ivana's father. Ivan's Father is Camille ' s younger brother. That's the way I knew it.

I'm really not sure that's canon as it contradicts many things. Do you have a source?

[Mephisto of the FoS]

Klaus Boritsi is Ivana's father there is no Boris Boritsi in any family tree.

The Boritsi's are descendants of an illicit affair between Gunther Cosco and Dorfniya _________, Pidlwik Dilisnya's wife. The son of this affair was Leo Dilisnya who Pidlwik raised as his son not knowing that it wasn't his. Leo is the one who attacked Castle Ravenloft in Sergei's Wedding.

Ivan Dilisnya is a direct descendant of Dorfniya _________ and Pidlwik Dilisnya.

Ivan and Ivana are distant cousins only from Dorfniya's side. Although they are so distant as cousins, as actually having no family relationship, because both their parents were Dilisnyas they are considered as being cousins.

There is a mistake in 3e Gazetteer that talks about Camille Dilisnya and names her Camille Boritsi. My opinion is that she would never take the name of one of her husbands but even if she did she remarried two more times after Klaus Boritsi so she wouldn't have kept the Boritsi name.

[Joël of the FoS]

I hadn't look this far in time. Thanks!

OK so both come from Leo's Dilisnya lineage, but that was may be 10-12 generations ago!

I think it's thus farfetched they consider themselves cousins so IMG I'll have them say that with a bit of irony.

[alhoon]

The 2nd Edition Domains of Dread hardcover book states:
"Boris Dilisnya, Ivan's father, grew up in Barovia. He married Stefania Septow, and they had a daughter, Kristina. In 684 a
distant cousin, Camille Dilisnya, became the darklord of Borca, so Ivan's family moved to that nearby domain.
Five years later, under a dark moon, Stefania bore a second child - a boy, Ivan, who was destined to become a darklord of
Dorvinia."

You will need to add these to the family tree.

Ok, so that's a very distant "cousin"

Yeaaah, that's true only if Ivan's father is actually his father and he's not the illegitimate son of an uncle of Ivana.

[Mistmaster]

Boris Boritsi is Ivana's father. Ivan's Father is Camille ' s younger brother. That's the way I knew it.

I'm really not sure that's canon as it contradicts many things. Do you have a source?

No, it's not canon it's only my take of it. I simplified things and made them really first degree cousin. The canon version is that they are distant cousins.

[tomokaicho]

The Boritsi's are descendants of an illicit affair between Gunther Cosco and Dorfniya _________, Pidlwik Dilisnya's wife. The son of this affair was Leo Dilisnya who Pidlwik raised as his son not knowing that it wasn't his. Leo is the one who attacked Castle Ravenloft in Sergei's Wedding.

My headcanon is that Dorfniya was also a member of House Dilisnya, a very distant relation of Pidlwik Dilisnya. That means that Leo's cursed lineage is still Dilisnya, even with the cuckolding of Pidlwik.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

OK so both come from Leo's Dilisnya lineage, but that was may be 10-12 generations ago!

No actually only Camille and Ivana come from Leo's lineage.

From Realm of Terror (Black Box) p.94

"Boris Dilisnya, Ivan's father grew up in Barovia. He married Stefania Septow and they had a daughter, Kristina. In 684 a distant cousin, Camille Dilisnya became the lord of Borca, and Ivan's family moved to that nearby domain. Camille considered them to be "the wrong side of the family tree"* - the side that should be pruned. They won no favors from her. Five years later, under a dark moon, Stefania bore a second child- a boy, Ivan, who was destined to become lord of Dorvinia. On the same day, Camille Dilisnya gave birth to a girl, whom she named Ivana. The names were coincidental, but the two children were like evil twins, Ivana eventually became lord of Borca."

*Probably Camille believed that Leo's lineage, one created by deceit was better suited for the Dilisnya name.

Leo Dilisnya was supposedly killed in 398 BC and his next direct descendant is shown to be Camille's father Lev Dilisnya born in 620 BC. In this span of more than two centuries other people of Dilisnya bloodline could have been born through illicit affairs, as it seems to be the "tradition" of this lineage. But the Dilisnya official lineage from this side of the family tree, the one with lawful claim to the Dilisnya property is only Camille's.

Well in the end she pruned Leo's side of the family tree during her late husbands Oleh Fortich's funeral in 698 BC with only her offspring and the descendants of Lev Dilisnya and Niki Romanoff's illicit affair continuing Leo Dilisnya's lineage. This side of the family are now called the Boritsi's, the only lawful heirs of Leo Dilisnya's property.

Gazetteer IV p. 19

"The plans were scrapped following the attack and two years later Ivan and Ivana eagerly signed the Treaty of Four Towers. As a note, only in Borca did I learn that the symbolic “Four Towers” refer to the ruling families who signed the pact — Guignol, Weathermay, Renier and Dilisnya — not the five countries they represented*." *(Dementlieu, Mordent, Richemulot, Dorvinia, Borca)

Ivana considers herself to be a Dilisnya even if she has adopted her father's name.

Gazetteer IV p. 150 & 154

"I can find no record that Lord Ivan and Lady Ivana ever visited each other, but they remained on good terms and their lands were closely allied. When the Great Upheaval struck in 740 BC, the cousins reputedly fled to each other’s arms in terror. When the tremors ended, the cousins decided to merge their realms peacefully under the Borcan banner. Weeks of intense bargaining followed, in which Ivan and Ivana — frequently overruling their advisors — traded deeds and indentures until they reached a new, integrated balance of power."

"Terrified by the tremors, Ivan sought out his cousin Ivana Boritsi for comfort. The two were in close proximity when the Grand Conjunction ended, and their domains merged, with Borca subsuming Dorvinia. Ivan now shares lordship with Ivana, and the awkwardness of this situation has driven the cousins to mutual hatred."

"As children, Ivana counted Ivan as a dear friend, but this sentiment now came to an end. The impish child Ivana once knew has been replaced by a bitter old man who craves her eternal youth — a gift not in her power to give."

I have a theory that as Ivan was "in love" with his sister Kristina, maybe he had the same feelings for Ivana since they were kids. When he grew up and became lord of Dorvinia, he didn't meet her until the Grand Conjunction, they only corresponded through mail. When the Grand Conjunction occurred he sought her out because he was attracted to her (for comfort) and was amazed to see the same young woman he was attracted to when he was younger (and still craved her youth, also in a sexual way). Well although Ivana rejected his advances, which is more possible as Ivana has a fixation with beautiful (on the outside) people she tried to give him the secret of youth, the vital venom formula, but since Ivan is immune to poison he was unaffected by the effects of the elixir/poison and became even more bitter as he thought that Ivana was keeping the secret from him. There is a chance they had bad sex during the Grand Conjunction (as the cousins reputedly fled to each other’s arms) but I doubt it.

The thing is that Ivan is probably the only person Ivana could have a sexual relationship with, since he is immune to her poisonous touch but because of Ivan's old age and temperament (as well as his attachment issues e.g. clinginess, jealousy etc.) she finds him unattractive, even repulsive. At the same time Ivan feels scorned and ridiculed so there are more reasons for them to despise each other than just Ivan's fixation with the secret of youth.

[Joël of the FoS]

*Calling Dr Freud, Dr Freud*

*Probably Camille believed that Leo's lineage, one created by deceit was better suited for the Dilisnya name.

That makes a lot of sense, in Camille's POV.

Thanks for these additional comments and precisions.

If my players ask more questions about Ivan/Ivana, I might use this.

It's true that up to 740, they considered each other friends (even if they never met). When they met in person, it soured (as in a bad date ). Afterward, it became worse.

Not sure they had a fling on the Upheaval, Ivan is old and his personality quickly annoying and unnerving. He probably bombarded Ivana with too much compliments on her look, so it made her see how Ivan was old (and envying and annoying). She would have found this within 5 minutes of their meeting. Perhaps he tried, but she fended him off (politely but firmly). From Ivana's POV, IMHO: you do not bed old, annoying and crying bastards, who are also a big disappointment when met in person.

They will soon have a speak with the dead session with the maid that entered the salon where Ivan was crying in Ivana's arms (said maid was killed afterward by Ivan to silence her) in 740. The goal of the spell is to learn what the Death Stone voices said, but she might let slip something else like (Ivan was in his underpants while Ivana wasn't).

[Mephisto of the FoS]

They will soon have a speak with the dead session with the maid that entered the salon where Ivan was crying in Ivana's arms (said maid was killed afterward by Ivan to silence her) in 740. The goal of the spell is to learn what the Death Stone voices said, but she might let slip something else like (Ivan was in his underpants while Ivana wasn't).

Niceeee...

[alhoon]

I think it is very heavily implied that Ivan was a "family man" through and through. I am also stunned that Ivana considers herself a Disilnya.

[tomokaicho]

I think it is very heavily implied that Ivan was a "family man" through and through. I am also stunned that Ivana considers herself a Disilnya.

Camille may have been in a matrilineal marriage, in which case Ivana Boritsi would still be a member of House Dilisnya. In fact, I think that matrilineal marriage in her circumstances would be the norm.