The supernatural in Ravenloft: In your face or out of sight?

[tomokaicho]

There is some tension between the original Ravenloft of the 2E Realms of Terror boxed set, to how it was at the end of the 2E line, and how Ravenloft was in 3E. I won't address 4E and 5E, because these are very different.

At the beginning of 2E Ravenloft, it was gothic fantasy horror. The horrors, monsters, undead and creeping things were out there and coming to get you. By the time we see Ravenloft in 3E, Ravenloft is gothic horror, and it's not clear that in the more advanced domains that people even believe in the supernatural at all, much less monsters. The supernatural in Ravenloft 3E is hidden. In the early iterations of 2E Ravenloft, the supernatural was in your face.

2E Ravenloft was an early example of a "points of light", with the caveat that the light dimmed at night. 3E, it seems to me, focused on the kind of evils that makes it quite difficult for a party of adventurers to simply take up arms and start fighting.

Any thoughts on how the Ravenloft modalities shifted over time?

[Mistmaster]

I think i still depends on the DM thought amnd to the place you settled your adventure.

[The Lesser Evil]

It hasn't been a straightly linear shift. Mid to late 2e gave us things like the Shadow Rift and Necropolis, which 3e inherited. But yes there seemed to be a shift from early 2e mostly as a weekend in hell (however extended) to l in late 2e/3e a place where native born characters could live, starting most notably with Domains of Dread (even though that book also gave us Vecna and Strahd and the Burning Peaks, pretty in your face elements). Before then, details on things like Ravenloft's native religions were sparse or scattered.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

My preference will always be for the subtle horror. I liken it to early X-files. The vast majority of people have to be Scullys for the Mulders to have someone to push against. That said, I do kinda like the Shadow Rift, and I've come round a bit on necropolis, but I prefer those be mostly rumor and superstition as far as anyone living farther than a few day's ride goes.

The PC are special in that they are the ones by necessity exposed to the realities of the supernatural. But the general populace should be a mix of, "stay out of the woods, there are monsters in it," and "bah, old wives's tales don't scare me, there's nothing in the woods but wild beasts!" I'm not a big fan of, "oh yeah, Bob the apothecary? He's a half-vampire, but a nice bloke."

There's definitely some tension with the game mechanics, in terms of magic. It's hard to have the populace saying magic doesn't exist when any 1st level wizard can cantrip at will and disprove them. But if the players are on board with the mood, that sort of thing can be brushed under the rug.

[Rock of the Fraternity]

If magic is kept rare, and the mages stick mostly to places where it's semi-acceptable (big cities), it can still work.
If people out in the sticks hardly ever see magic done and their lives are harsh, they'll be more likely to dismiss its existence - and freak out when they see it done.

[alhoon]

Well, I am not sure that "dismissal" could work in Ravenloft. There is a big magical calamity every generation.
And the borders are very often clearly supernatural.

[tomokaicho]

There is also tension between the idea that the populace rejects the idea of magic, yet at the same time they are superstitious peasants.

I think this tendency strengthened towards the end of the 2E line of products, and was formalized during the 3E era. The early era 2E Ravenloft was more at peace with itself. Magic is real (and possibly evil). Monsters are real but also subject to a lot of superstitious disinformation, like "all aristocrats are vampires", which makes confronting the real vampirism problem more difficult.

For me, the solution is to dial back the Enlightenment philosophy (see Wikipedia) present in the setting. In the place of scientific salons, academies, literary salons and so on, you have these things but they are explicitly occult, like alchemical philosophy. Only outliers like Dr Mordenheim focus on "pure science", but even his work is tainted by hidden hands.

Restoring the setting to its roots means restoring it to the 'gothic horror fantasy ' genre. In 3E we had gothic and horror, but little fantasy. In recent works here, I think the The Conferences of Victor Gagné are quite representative of the gothic horror fantasy genre.

Not seeking to generate controversy, just pointing out how the modalities of the Ravenloft setting have changed over time.

[Rock of the Fraternity]

Well, I am not sure that "dismissal" could work in Ravenloft. There is a big magical calamity every generation.
And the borders are very often clearly supernatural.

I wonder. Has local science tried to explain the Grand Conjunction and the Grim Harvest? The Syndicate of Enlightened Citizens could be working on that.

Not everyone travels. Presumably, only those who do regularly leave domains run any chance of witnessing the borders' activation. Those who never see it could roll their eyes and suggest the person telling the story's been at the booze. Except for the domains where supernatural power does not bother to hide. I also imagine the poor shmucks in Barovia Village would be willing to believe the whole country can be circled by poison fog - though it would probably fill them with despair.

[Mistmaster]

The Mistworld is a fantasy world; It has mystical fog banks appearing to bring monsters and, sometime heroes; The gods send omens to the faithfuls and magic is a fact; No domain can thrive on its own, so almost every domain have trading relationships; Many of the Core's rivers are navigable, and, Vistani and Ezra priests (and some other organization) can travel by the Mists. So, people in small villages can be largely ignorant, superstitious and xenophobic, while larger town and cities are more cosmopoliical. There are places where mosters lays hidden to ambush people, and there are places where mosters are simply people. Vampires in Lazendrak, Undeads in Skulland, Werewolves in Verbrek, Wererats in Richemulot, everyone in Zeindost and Wolfweres and Pakas in Invidia, to make some examples. Gothic Horror in my hopinion does not mean simply to have a monster acting as such, but defying expectetion and having the innocent and the guilty often swap look. So, in my Ravenloft supernatural is everywhere, but things rearely are the way they look.

[alhoon]

While I agree that once hearing that the border turned to fog was a lie, by the 4th time you hear that Falkovnia's forces were eliminated by Undead you probably start to wonder. Then, there's word by people you probably trust that have seen such events.
Last but not least... people tend to be superstitious in rural places. Why would they NOT believe that a wall of rats 20 ft high suddenly raised on the border, when they have heard similar stories from their uncles and neighbors?