Create Goblyn limitations

[Rock of the Fraternity]

Presumably when the Big Brain yanks psions into Bluetspur, it throws its minions enough grey matter to save them from starvation.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

Presumably when the Big Brain yanks psions into Bluetspur, it throws its minions enough grey matter to save them from starvation.

I guess they breed some for use as cattle, maybe even forcing them via domination to reproduce. Thats what otherwordly "morality" probably is like

[Rock of the Fraternity]

Illithids do see all other life as being basically beneath them on the evilutionary and evolutionary scales...

[Mistmaster]

Massive use of magic clonation.

[alhoon]

In the 2e Monstrous Compedium under Goblyn Ecology it states:

"Goblyns do not sleep, tire, or become bored. Furthermore, they can go for a considerable amount of time without food or drink."

This sparse eating reminded me of sharks and after a quick search I found this.

Well, sharks live in the water and they're cold-blooded and their metabolism is slow. Which of course doesn't say that similar metabolisms are not possible for magical creatures like Goblyns. 2e Goblyn sounds like a super-minion. Was there a spell that made Goblyns in 2e? I don't recall any.
I was talking about 3e-5e goblyns that as far as I am aware, they don't have shark metabolism and need sleep and get bored.

But even if we go with 2e Goblyns... you can still put cap on how many one can control with a given spell.

Illithids do see all other life as being basically beneath them on the evilutionary and evolutionary scales...

I beg your pardon but that sentence makes me suspect that you disagree with the self-evident superiority of my former race.
The only thing above Illithids in the pyramid is, of course, alhoons. We transcended from the master race to the epitome. We're not pesky undead that come from sub-illithid races like liches and vamps. Nope.

[Rock of the Fraternity]

Illithids do see all other life as being basically beneath them on the evilutionary and evolutionary scales...

I beg your pardon but that sentence makes me suspect that you disagree with the self-evident superiority of my former race.
The only thing above Illithids in the pyramid is, of course, alhoons. We transcended from the master race to the epitome. We're not pesky undead that come from sub-illithid races like liches and vamps. Nope.

Weeeellll... Alright. I'll grant the Illithid that they make highly superior calamari stock.

*burp*

[tomokaicho]

Well, sharks live in the water and they're cold-blooded and their metabolism is slow. Which of course doesn't say that similar metabolisms are not possible for magical creatures like Goblyns. 2e Goblyn sounds like a super-minion. Was there a spell that made Goblyns in 2e? I don't recall any.
I was talking about 3e-5e goblyns that as far as I am aware, they don't have shark metabolism and need sleep and get bored.

Just so we know that we are talking about the same thing.



This is the 3E Goblyn. They can eat almost anything, which probably means that they can graze on leaves and grass if necessary. They never sleep or grow bored or initiate combat on their own.

The great thing about Goblyns is their Monstrous Humanoid RHD. Those HD are 'good' HD, only one step below Outsider and Dragon RHD. They get full BAB, which makes them monsters (ahem) in combat.

But even if we go with 2e Goblyns... you can still put cap on how many one can control with a given spell.

Here is how the limit for Animate Dead works.

The undead you create remain under your control indefinitely. No matter how many times you use this spell, however, you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level. If you exceed this number, all the newly created creatures fall under your control, and any excess undead from previous castings become uncontrolled. (You choose which creatures are released.) If you are a cleric, any undead you might command by virtue of your power to command or rebuke undead do not count toward the limit.

Regular Goblyns that aren't RHD advanced are 4 HD. That means 1 Goblyn per Caster Level. A Wizard will be at least 9th level before it can cast this 5th level spell, so a 9th level Wizard could have 9 Goblyns under control at any given time.

Rock upthread mentioned powers checks and that gives me an idea. For every powers check failed, the number of Goblyns that can be controlled increases by the base number of controllable creatures x2. That is a great incentive for a would be 'Goblyn King' (remember the movie Labyrinth?). Lets say Mr. Scrimmar is a would-be Goblyn King 9th level Wizard. He controls 9 Goblyns, each of 4 HD. Mr. Scrimmar then fails a powers check, and his limit increases to 18 Goblyns. A second failed check increases Mr. Scrimmar's limit to 27 Goblyns, and so on.

Certain items could help. For example, this Goblyn version of the Rod of Undead Mastery.

Rod of Goblyn Mastery
This metal rod is carved to resemble a Goblyn skull. Anyone who holds the rod can control twice as many Goblyn than he normally could. For instance, normally a caster can't control more HD of Goblyns than four times his caster level, but while holding the rod of Goblyn mastery, he can control eight times his caster level of Goblyns.
Moderate transmuation; CL 10th; Craft Rod, Control Goblyn; Price 10,000 gp.

I think this is fair to PC 'Goblyn Kings'. NPC Goblyn Kings can be explained by magic items and artifacts, as they were in 2E.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

I am not in favour of this Power Check rule, cause it makes Powers Check something else than it is.
Reward/punishment becomes reward/reward/reward/reprimand.

It could be that Undead are harder to control because of their connection with the Negative Material Plane while goblyns are transformed humanoids, so I would personaly keep their number being unlimited. If someone can get their hands of the Create Goblyn and use it to transform humans is already too badass to have gained the benefit of having as much as he wants, as long as he continues to go down the dark path of transforming people into beasts. Also this is also one of the reasons it is the preferable minion of evil wizards, cause they can have a lot, goblyns are absolutely loyal to them, they have an empathic link with them, they dont sleep, they don't eat much.

[tomokaicho]

I am not in favour of this Power Check rule, cause it makes Powers Check something else than it is.
Reward/punishment becomes reward/reward/reward/reprimand.

Can you elaborate on that?

[Mephisto of the FoS]

I am not in favour of this Power Check rule, cause it makes Powers Check something else than it is.
Reward/punishment becomes reward/reward/reward/reprimand.

Can you elaborate on that?

Powers Checks give one reward and one punishment if the powers of PC's or NPC's are increased by giving more pluses with a Power's Check then the balance is off.

It is like giving a lot for too little and becomes more like a carrot in front of a donkey than a balanced thing that people choose whether to follow the good path or the wrong path.

For instance if I do this then I will have burning hands but I will grow horns...

That becomes if I do this I will grow horns but I will have burning hands, more goblyns to control and who knows what else...

It is like the Dark Powers are trying to make everyone evil while as they are they resemble more jailers, punishing those who choose to do evil stuff. By having one plus and one minus they let them have a choice, if pluses are more than minuses, yes they still have a choice but it is not as balanced as it was.

In the end in game mechanics it overpowers evil doers, and maybe you end up having PC's doing evils stuff to gain more power...
Ending prematuraly the campaign when everyone has their own pocket domain.

[tomokaicho]

Powers Checks give one reward and one punishment if the powers of PC's or NPC's are increased by giving more pluses with a Power's Check then the balance is off.

I get that. I am not suggesting reward without punishment. Rock mentioned 'terror tracks' upthread. So this terror track could be 'track of the Goblyn King'. A whole bunch of terror tracks appeared in the Book of Shadows.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

OK but does it mean that every Goblyn Lord follows that? Then it becomes to generic.

[tomokaicho]

OK but does it mean that every Goblyn Lord follows that? Then it becomes to generic.

'Track of the Vampire' is from canon. I can't speak for every Goblyn Lord/King/Queen. The terror tracks are a suggestion about how things might go down. I don't think we are chained to it.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

OK but does it mean that every Goblyn Lord follows that? Then it becomes to generic.

'Track of the Vampire' is from canon. I can't speak for every Goblyn Lord/King/Queen. The terror tracks are a suggestion about how things might go down. I don't think we are chained to it.

What I meant was that if every Gonlyn Lord goes down that path it will be generic. There can be exceptions and individuals gain power as Goblyn Lords but what for the rest? Do some end up having hordes because they failed 4 Powers Checks and other stay with max 9 minions? What kind of Goblyn Lord is someone with 9 minions...

[alhoon]

I also agree that the Powers Checks reward for Goblyns strikes me as odd.

About the "limits". The 4HD/caster level (in 3e) is for animate dead which is much lower level. But as I said, I would let the story guide me as far as limits go. I would put a cap per mage in question, from a couple dozen to 500 as needed.

About 3e Goblyns not being bored, sleeping or eating: I don't remember that. I remember them being normal monstrous humanoids in 3e but I may be wrong.
Regardless, as I said we have different situations here. Create Goblyn for PCs comes with limits of its own. Create Goblyn for NPCs could come with soft-cap limits the DM imposes.
To return back to the animate dead example: Did you really had the high level NPCs in your game have so low a cap? Just 36HD of undead for the 9th lvl undead priest in the cave? Personally, I never did pay much of attention to that. That undead priest could have as high cap as needed for my story.

When I had evil PCs that wanted more undead, there were rituals and things they could do to increase their cap manyfold.