Create Goblyn limitations

[Rock of the Fraternity]

Suggested feat:

Usurper [General]

Prerequisite: Non-Good alignment, Deceitful, Persuasive, Knowledge (any) 8 ranks (see text)

Benefit: Having this feat allows you to usurp the bond between master and slave. If confronted by creatures controlled by another through supernatural means, such as goblyns or undead spawn, you may make an attempt to wrest control away from the master.
* In order to perform this act, you must have at least 8 ranks in a Knowledge skill that covers the creature whose loyalty you are trying to subvert.
* If you can communicate with the creature peacefully, or at least without it being in a position to immediately attack you, make an appropriate Knowledge check to identify it.
- If you pass the check by 10 or more, you can make a Bluff, Diplomacy or Intimidate check to improve the creature's attitude.
- If you pass the check by 20 or more, you can also make a Bluff, Diplomacy or Intimidate check to improve the creature's attitude, but you gain a +2 modifier to your check.
* If the Bluff, Diplomacy or Intimidate check is successful, you roll a Control check.
- A Control check is an opposed roll between you and the current controller of the creature you are trying to subvert into your service.
- Roll 1d20 + your ECL + your Cha. modifier for yourself.
- Next roll 1d20 + the controller's ECL + the controller's Cha. modifier for the controller.
- If you beat the controller's roll, you subvert their control over the creature and gain its service as though you were the controller.
* Be aware that your control is not absolute; alienating your new servant in any way, be it through violence, mistreatment or neglect will snap your control on the spot.
* Also be aware that you can not maintain control over an unlimited number of creatures. The amount of beings you subvert through the Usurper feat counts against the number of creatures you could create and control through magic, psionics or science. The maximum number of creatures you can control through the Usurper feat equals the sum of your Constitutions and Charisma modifiers (if present and positive).

[Mephisto of the FoS]

This is very nice, nice job!
I would potentially change only these...

* Be aware that your control is not absolute; alienating your new servant in any way, be it through violence, mistreatment or neglect will snap your control on the spot.

I would say it depends on the monster you now control, as I said before for instance goblyns are completely subservient, even commanding one to commit suicide is applicable in my opinion.

* Also be aware that you can not maintain control over an unlimited number of creatures. The amount of beings you subvert through the Usurper feat counts against the number of creatures you could create and control through magic, psionics or science.

I am not familiar with 3e rules on maximum creatures you can control, I understand why to put a limitation, it's the discussion that lead us here, but why gaining control from another is any different than having control from creating these monsters. My personal opinion is that it could be unlimited cause how can someone control a whole army of goblyns as in the book this way?... Well if we take the story literally, how can a person with no arcane knowledge and a few levels in Aristocrat at best, be able to have 8 ranks in Knowledge (specific monster) and all these feats

The maximum number of creatures you can control through the Usurper feat equals the sum of your Constitutions and Charisma modifiers (if present and positive).

I understand Charisma but why do you need stamina for controlling, I would say willpower is more important so Wisdom.

[Rock of the Fraternity]

This is very nice, nice job!
I would potentially change only these...

* Be aware that your control is not absolute; alienating your new servant in any way, be it through violence, mistreatment or neglect will snap your control on the spot.

I would say it depends on the monster you now control, as I said before for instance goblyns are completely subservient, even commanding one to commit suicide is applicable in my opinion.

I'd like to keep this part, as a symptom of the fact that you have 'hacked' the controlling bond and re-written it to suit your own purposes. The existing connection has been damaged and become less reliable than it used to be.

* Also be aware that you can not maintain control over an unlimited number of creatures. The amount of beings you subvert through the Usurper feat counts against the number of creatures you could create and control through magic, psionics or science.

I am not familiar with 3e rules on maximum creatures you can control, I understand why to put a limitation, it's the discussion that lead us here, but why gaining control from another is any different than having control from creating these monsters. My personal opinion is that it could be unlimited cause how can someone control a whole army of goblyns as in the book this way?... Well if we take the story literally, how can a person with no arcane knowledge and a few levels in Aristocrat at best, be able to have 8 ranks in Knowledge (specific monster) and all these feats

Well, the limit's there to prevent a spellcaster with a minion master mentality from getting entirely out of hand.
If someone without magic powers takes Usurper, maybe we could give them a greater capacity for subverting bonds of loyalty? Maybe ... one monster per Hit Die of the one using Usurper?

Deceitful and Persuasive seem to fit Clarisse just fine, to me, and she could get those at 1st levels. She assesses herself as being smarter and fitter than all the men supposedly superior to herself, but she managed to hide both her superiority and her contempt from her father and anyone else who might have punished her for being 'uppity'. She also managed to keep Harrowing from realizing how much she disliked living at his place - although he may not have been paying so much attention, come to think of it.
The Knowledge ranks would be in (nature) if I remember correctly, and Knowledge is an Aristocrat class skill. If Clarisse has sufficient knowledge in the outdoors, or just sufficient contempt of the cities where she grew up, she could probably swing 8 ranks.

The maximum number of creatures you can control through the Usurper feat equals the sum of your Constitution and Charisma modifiers (if present and positive).

I understand Charisma but why do you need stamina for controlling, I would say willpower is more important so Wisdom.

Ah, my thought was that you overpower the controlling bond through your own raw vitality (Constitution) and force of personality (Charisma). Your argument is good, though.
Maybe we could make it possible to choose which modifiers you use, Con. + Cha. or else Wis. + Cha.?

[tomokaicho]

Suggested feat:

Usurper [General]

I appreciate all efforts at cruch, but am apprehensive about this kind of feat, especially as it relates to Goblyns. Goblyns have a telepathic link to their master and control is total. It intrudes on more straightforward usurpations, like the dominate spell or psionic power (and control would revert to the master after the spell duration ended).

What have I discovered here.

There was to be a sub-plot about Herrd ApKie and his desire to throw off Tristen's yoke and rule the goblyns of Forlorn himself. A hag by the name of Tassinggame was to have helped Herrd by supplying him with magic warpaint that broke the bonds between goblyn and master, giving Herrd's rebel goblyns a Pictish twist. Time ran out on me before I finished this (and we were long on word-count anyhow).

Goblyns are high quality servants/slaves. Not really any downsides except potential powers checks.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

Herrd ApKie is the goblyn I mentioned wearing a ring of mind shielding I hadn't read that Chris Nichols comment before, that's fun. Maybe this is what "the Demon" Dilisnya used to take control of some goblyn clans.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

Do you think there could be an advancement feat called let's say "Superior Unsurper" which gives the character the power to take control of a minion even if it is in a position to immediately attack you? or is it too much?

[Mistmaster]

My Goblyns are simply the Goblinoids by the namethey are known in Forlorn.

[Rock of the Fraternity]

Do you think there could be an advancement feat called let's say "Superior Unsurper" which gives the character the power to take control of a minion even if it is in a position to immediately attack you? or is it too much?

Weeelll... You'd still need to be in a position to make a social check to 'hack' its connection with the master.
Easier to just dig a pit trap, I think.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

* Be aware that your control is not absolute; alienating your new servant in any way, be it through violence, mistreatment or neglect will snap your control on the spot.

I'd like to keep this part, as a symptom of the fact that you have 'hacked' the controlling bond and re-written it to suit your own purposes. The existing connection has been damaged and become less reliable than it used to be.

OK I agree but I believe such a behaviour against a minion would give the minion a saving throw to shake of the control instead of being automatic, especially since it is a "hack".

Also I believe the feat should also point that it's use against a darklords minion (Forlorn Goblyn, Azalin's monstrous new undead experiment, or Hazlik's clay created minions) is futile. Darklords just can't loose control so easily.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

Do you think there could be an advancement feat called let's say "Superior Unsurper" which gives the character the power to take control of a minion even if it is in a position to immediately attack you? or is it too much?

Weeelll... You'd still need to be in a position to make a social check to 'hack' its connection with the master.
Easier to just dig a pit trap, I think.

...whistle...
Here goblyn...goblyn...goblyn

[Rock of the Fraternity]

Goblyn comes running...

*wilhelm scream*

[Mephisto of the FoS]

*wilhelm scream*

[alhoon]

Game-wise, create Goblyn comes with a risk of a Powers' check, so it is not for Player Characters. And PCs that cast it, will not be PCs for too long.

What I do:
I put caps, depending on the scenario. I have used everything from "up to 12" to "500+" goblyns, as needed.
The issue with the 500+ goblyns was... they are living creatures. They need food and sleep and they die from disease and all. In the end, creating 500 goblyns didn't seem sustainable for the bad guy I had in mind, so while I would allow him as much, he ended up having a 100-150, most of which were killed by the PCs with "a few dozen" remaining scatter in the wasteland they were at.

What I mean is that in the mountainside the bad guy with his goblyn factory was, there were people disappearing and monsters attacking sheep and herds.
While there was more or less 1 goblyn for 1-2 missing people (as some died instead of being captured), and goblyns eat less than humans, the people were producing food, not just hunter-gatherers and looters.

What is 100% possible and sustainable is for a big bad mage-lord to have a force of goblyns that is sustained by the population. I.e. instead of 1000 peasants providing food for 20 soldiers and a couple dozen servants, apprentices, lackeys of the mage etc. they provided food for ... 30 goblyns and a couple dozen servants, apprentices, lackeys etc. Substitute "soldier" with " 1 1/2 goblyns" and you're at the same food consumption and less $$$$ needs.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

The issue with the 500+ goblyns was... they are living creatures. They need food and sleep and they die from disease and all.

In the 2e Monstrous Compedium under Goblyn Ecology it states:

"Goblyns do not sleep, tire, or become bored. Furthermore, they can go for a considerable amount of time without food or drink."

This sparse eating reminded me of sharks and after a quick search I found this.

"In a zoological environment, a shark eats about 1% to 10% of its total body weight per week. Studies on sharks in the wild show similar food intake.
In other words, a 2.75 m (9 ft.) sand tiger shark weighing 131kg (289 lb.) may eat just 2 to 6 kg (4-13 lb.) a week."

So if we take 1% of their (goblyns) body wait per week as a considerable amount of time without food or drink.
With the 1% of their total body weight per week for goblyns being 0,85 kg (1,85 lbs)
If we take that a goblyn waits as an average man, around 84kg (185lbs), that would be around 0,85 kg (1,85 lbs) for each one of them.

A weekly sustainability for 500 goblyns would be 425 kg (925 lbs) per week. Which translates to 5 average weight men or around 1-2 mooses per week.

Weights Of Different Types Of Moose:
Ussurian moose – 440-770 pounds (199-349 kg)
Chukotka moose – 1,100-1,595 pounds (498-723 kg)
Eastern moose – 595-805 pounds (269-365 kg)
Western moose – 750-1,100 pounds (340-498 kg)
Alaskan moose – 660-1,500 pounds (299-680 kg)
Shiras moose – 500-750 pounds (226-340 kg)

Or 435kg of animal meat per week, Goblyns are expert hunters as they are very nimble and can surprise their opponents.
A Goblyn Lord may instruct a small team to go out to find food for the rest, as much hungry as a goblyn is it will not disobey it's lord and go search food for the rest.

Now if Domenic the Goblyn Lord made his lair in G'Henna... it is his problem to solve, not ours.

So it is not hard to sustain them and in my mind "a considerable amount of time without food or drink" would be more than what I calculated before.

For instance Radaga could sustain her army of Goblyns (although there are not many goblyns in Feast of Goblyns I counted 40 plus a 3d4 goblyn patrol random encounter)

Feast of Goblyns states:
she (Radaga) will take her large host of her existing servants (most of whom constantly roam over eastern Kartakass and into Bluetspur).
So probably her goblyns are searching for food around, now why they would go to Bluetspur for food is something I can't figure out

[tomokaicho]

So probably her goblyns are searching for foud around, now why they would go to Bluetspur for food is something I can't figure out

Now that Bluetspur is an island of terror, I wonder how the mind flayers are getting their meals. Lords of Madness 3.5 described the logistics of mind flayer feeding, and let's say that the mind flayers of Bluetspur should be skinny now.

Has there been any stuff on Goblyns in QtR?