Create Goblyn limitations

[tomokaicho]

Create Goblyn is a 5th level Wizard spell permanently transforms a humanoid into a goblyn. Here is the problem. All the other minionmancy spells, like Animate Dead have a limitation on the number of HD of minions that can be controlled at any given time. The Create Goblyn has no such limitation.

Any thoughts.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

Create Goblyn is a 5th level Wizard spell permanently transforms a humanoid into a goblyn. Here is the problem. All the other minionmancy spells, like Animate Dead have a limitation on the number of HD of minions that can be controlled at any given time. The Create Goblyn has no such limitation.

Any thoughts.

Animate dead creates a high HD undead or many animated dead while Create Goblyn transforms one individual to the base creature.

[tomokaicho]

Animate dead creates a high HD undead or many animated dead while Create Goblyn transforms one individual to the base creature.

That is true, but HD for HD, Goblyns are substantially better than skeletons or zombies. As far as minionmancy is concerned, it does not matter that one spell can only create one Goblyn. The main issue is that there is no cap on the number of Goblyns that can be controlled.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

The main issue is that there is no cap on the number of Goblyns that can be controlled.

I believe the number is infinite as in The House of a Hundred Windows in Evenore, Darkon. It is detailed in the novel Tales of Ravenoft. Then the darklord of Forlorn has also infinite power over the goblyns of his domain except one who is wearing a ring of mind shielding.

In 3e Legacy of Blood the Dilisnya guy detailed there is stated to live in an abandoned castle in Forlorn and having also some goblyns under his command. Now how he managed to do that is not detailed, maybe it is a trick by the darklord to entertain himself...

[DustBunny]

That is true, but HD for HD, Goblyns are substantially better than skeletons or zombies. As far as minionmancy is concerned, it does not matter that one spell can only create one Goblyn. The main issue is that there is no cap on the number of Goblyns that can be controlled.

One way to limit a potential 'goblyn factory' would be to tweak the material components - the "handful of mud" has to come from Forlorn. Or even harder, the mud has to come from the Goblyn caves where the Arawan Caludron is hidden. With the additional twist that any created Goblyns entering Forlorn instantly come under the control of Tristen.

Or if you want to limit numbers, you could have the creator roll a DC level of choice with a +1 difficulty per additional Goblyn above their "limit".
As for the limit, maybe 1 Gobbo per 2HD.

So a 10th level wizard can have 5 Gobbos for 'free'. But if our wizards gets cocky and creates 10 Gobbos, they now have to roll a DC with +5 to maintain control.
As for the skill, I guess it would be Wisdom (mental domination) or Charisma (Personality Domination)

And losing control of the Gobylns usually means their first target is going to be their former master.

[tomokaicho]

I believe the number is infinite as in The House of a Hundred Windows in Evenore, Darkon. It is detailed in the novel Tales of Ravenoft.

I remember that one. Was it ever explicitly stated that it was unlimited?

Then the darklord of Forlorn has also infinite power over the goblyns of his domain except one who is wearing a ring of mind shielding.

The Darklord of Forlorn has an artifact.

In 3e Legacy of Blood the Dilisnya guy detailed there is stated to live in an abandoned castle in Forlorn and having also some goblyns under his command. Now how he managed to do that is not detailed, maybe it is a trick by the darklord to entertain himself...

I will have to look that one up.

As for the limit, maybe 1 Gobbo per 2HD.

I was thinking something similar to Animate Dead, if there is indeed to be a limit. As Mephisto says, there may not be a limit.

[DustBunny]

I was thinking something similar to Animate Dead, if there is indeed to be a limit. As Mephisto says, there may not be a limit.

I didn't know that, but I will track down 100 windows.

I was working on there is no creation limit, but a control limit similar to animate dead as you mention.
Anyone who decides to build themselves a Gobbo army, is taking a risk all the pet Goblyns will "slip the leash".
Eg: They fail the control roll, and the just created Goblyn becomes a pack leader ursurping command of all the Gobylns.

The creator may be successful for a while, but if they push their luck too far, they are in trouble.
Which is why you dont have every hedge wizard with retinues of Goblyns. They either got eaten, or learned quickly not to 'bite off more than they can chew'.

[tomokaicho]

I was working on there is no creation limit, but a control limit similar to animate dead as you mention.
Anyone who decides to build themselves a Gobbo army, is taking a risk all the pet Goblyns will "slip the leash".
Eg: They fail the control roll, and the just created Goblyn becomes a pack leader ursurping command of all the Gobylns.

As long as its only NPCs that have the Create Goblyn spell, its all in the hands of the DM, so it doesn't matter so much. A PC with uncapped control of Goblyns could be a headache for the DM.

[Rock of the Fraternity]

Not that big a headache.
Any player who overindulges in casting spells like Create Goblyn would soon find themselves on an express Terror Track to a domain of their very own. Possibly one where there's nothing else but goblyns for company, and the fact that they're completely enslaved to the freshly minted Darklord's will means they'd suffer from soul-crushing loneliness.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

I believe the number is infinite as in The House of a Hundred Windows in Evenore, Darkon. It is detailed in the novel Tales of Ravenoft.

I remember that one. Was it ever explicitly stated that it was unlimited?

No it doesn't say that, the Goblyn Lord just happens to have a throng of goblyns, or this is how I imagined it. Domenic is stated to have an army of gobyns.

Then the darklord of Forlorn has also infinite power over the goblyns of his domain except one who is wearing a ring of mind shielding.

The Darklord of Forlorn has an artifact.

No Tristen doesn't have an artifact. He can't leave the castle remember? and the Goblyn Cauldron is in the caves of Mnt. Arawn as mentioned before. The Cauldron makes gobyns it doesn't give powers of domination over them. Tristen is the sole goblyn lord of Forlorn until Rodjn Dilisnya in 3e (p.138 Legacies of Blood)

"Currently, Rodjan and his band occupy fortress in Forlorn, where he dominates the local goblyn clans and treats with potential employers."

He could have an item that helps him or maybe he has begun to have a reality wrinkle disrupting Tristens domination. Or as stated before maybe Tristen just lets him go on believing he has control over the goblyn clans under his influence.

As long as its only NPCs that have the Create Goblyn spell, its all in the hands of the DM, so it doesn't matter so much. A PC with uncapped control of Goblyns could be a headache for the DM.

A PC like that will probably have a short carrier as a PC and a long one as a darklord NPC to a minor pocket domain...

PS

VIEW CONTENT:

In House of a Hundred Windows the protagonist Clarisse Harrowing takes control of the goblyns...

Born and raised in Il Aluk into a wealthy merchant family, Clarisse was wed to Lord Gareff Harrowing in an arranged marriage. Bearing no love for her husband, Clarisse lived as a veritable prisoner in Lord Harrowing's manor estate.

In order to achieve liberation from Lord Harrowing, she entreated with and eventually liberated Domenic. However, he was as oppressive a a lover as Lord Harrowing a husband. When both men became involved in mortal combat and reached a stalemate, they both called for Clarisse's support, with Harrowing laying claim to her obedience as his wife, and Domenic claiming he had taken control over her through seduction. Instead of choosing either, Clarisse unleashed and assumed control over the goblyns Domenic had created, refused both men and used her new servants to seal them away in the otherworldly prison Harrowing had once created for his enemy and his armies.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

Maybe some rules over Goblyn domination should apply between dominators. For instance a spell like Goblyn Control (it doesn't exist) that tries to take domination from a Goblyn Lord and add them to you, or in the case of minionancy an advanced feat similar to Command Undead.

In case the Goblyn Lord is also the creator of the goblyn then it might be more difficult to take control from them, and it should be Charisma based.

Tristen has a Cha 19, but as a darklord who has n empathic link with every goblyn in Forlorn it is impossible to lose control of them the same way it is impossible to gain control of wolves under Strahd's influene etc.

[Rock of the Fraternity]

In Clarisse's case, usurping control doesn't seem to require a specific spell or even arcane training. Might we assume Clarisse somehow instinctively wrested control over the red window away from Harrowing and thus gained control over the goblyns Domenic had abandoned behind it?

[Mephisto of the FoS]

However, a lesser Goblyn Lord's control can be usurped or supplanted, just as Clarisse did with Domenic's creations.
In her case, it doesn't seem to require require a specific spell or even arcane training. Might we assume Clarisse somehow instinctively wrested control over the red window away from Harrowing and thus gained control over the goblyns Domenic had abandoned behind it?

Well, game literature doesn't always follow the rules for the sake of the story, but maybe some rules can be created on gothic fantasy fiction like the feat I proposed.

I don't believe we can clasify Domenic as a lesser Goblyn Lord, but maybe as you suggested because he left the goblyns trapped in the mirror Clarisse managed to control them herself... (Then he rolled a natural 1 on his roll to regain control of them and dragged him and his adversarie back into the otherworldly prison)

[Rock of the Fraternity]

It might help that by the point Clarisse seized control of the goblyn horde, she despised both Harrowing and Domenic; a sentiment the goblyns could definitely get on board with, assuming the magic of the red window disrupted Domenic's control.
Harrowing had been hunting them down like mad dogs and trapping them for years. If Domenic was a typical minion master, he probably used them as disposable tools -- and they might remember he essentially stole their old lives from them.
In the goblyns' place, if a new master or mistress - who was full of hate for both men who tormented the goblyns in the past, and also full of greed and hunger for the fine things in life - tried to supplant Domenic's control with the goal of taking down both Harrowing and Domenic, I'd probably respond with a hearty "HELL, YEAH!" (or goblyn equivalent) and try to get on board with the new boss.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

It might help that by the point Clarisse seized control of the goblyn horde, she despised both Harrowing and Domenic; a sentiment the goblyns could definitely get on board with, assuming the magic of the red window disrupted Domenic's control.
Harrowing had been hunting them down like mad dogs and trapping them for years. If Domenic was a typical minion master, he probably used them as disposable tools -- and they might remember he essentially stole their old lives from them.
In the goblyns' place, if a new master or mistress - who was full of hate for both men who tormented the goblyns in the past, and also full of greed and hunger for the fine things in life - tried to supplant Domenic's control with the goal of taking down both Harrowing and Domenic, I'd probably respond with a hearty "HELL, YEAH!" (or goblyn equivalent) and try to get on board with the new boss.

Nice idea but goblyns are completely dominated by their masters in 2e they had a morale of 20 because they were an extension of their masters wishes. In 3e it states

"they are under total control of their masters...Their only desire is to obey their master's whims."

Also they are immune to mind control influence so probably only a very strong personality can gain control of a goblyn from it's creator and not a spell unless if the spell is Disrupt Control or something like

Disrupting Spell
( Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells, p. 83)
[Metamagic]

You can cast spells that disrupt other caster's magical capabilities.

Benefit
You can alter a spell so it interferes with one or more targets' supernatural and spell-like abilities, as well as any spells they cast. A disrupting spell temporarily reduces the save DC of any spell, spell-like, or supernatural ability the affected creature or creatures can cast or use by 2. The effect of a disrupting spell lasts for a number of rounds equal to the spell's unmodifi ed level. Multiple disrupting spells do not stack. A disrupting spell has no effect on magic items. A disrupting spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell's actual level.