Sea of Sorrows Survey - Review Thread

[Jeremy16]

It just occurred to me that instead of all the thread resurrections I've been doing I could have just started a new one myself and keep all my reviews together in one place. Oh, well. Better late than never...

Anyway, here's my review for "A Tour of Western Waters" from QTR #22 that surveys the Sea of Sorrows as a whole.

Unlike most of the other SoS articles I've reviewed, I really feel like this entry needs more added to it. The most notable thing that is lacking is monsters. Grab those sea wolves (from QTR #20) and “scalies” (from QTR #21) and throw them into the mix to make this place really come alive! Add in a few giant octopuses and krakens and you finally have something markedly different from the Nocturnal Sea.

Landscape – Calling out the fact that distances are relative when discussing this body of water is a nice detail. I, myself, prefer a bigger sea but it's good that it was left open-ended.

Flora – Stuff like Gillweed and Red Tears are exactly what this place needs to make it feel more real. I would throw in a line about how Gillweed is only found around the more “inhospitable” islands such as Demise and Markovia to provide more reason to visit them. Blaustein, naturally, needs to be the de facto distribution center for Red Tears.

Fauna – The Ghost Crab is a neat idea. I also love the call back to the squid lurking around the reefs of Markovia.

History – Tying the revelation of the sea and the first appearance of the Relentless is a nice touch. A “first hand” account here would help.

Populace – I like the breakdown of each group of sailors and how they interact. I would even ask for a further breakdown between people within each group. After all, in the real world there is a ton of difference between lobster fishermen, whalers, and tuna fishermen. Ditto for the pirates. Are there crews that only steal exotic goods, or specialize in white slavery, or who go up and down the coast raiding settlements? Stuff like that instead of treating them all as one big, monolithic group.

Piracy – Is the taboo on shedding blood an original idea or from canon? It's a nifty detail and used to good effect here. The “punishment” of serving on the Relentless, however, needs to be clarified. Is it only that crewmembers are doomed to never leave the ship or is there some more painful element to their servitude?

Bordering Nations – This would be a perfect place for Mistways to be gathered and examined in detail. Also, expand the “bordering” nations to clusters (like the Steaming Lands and Zheresia) and islands of terror (like Rokushima Taiyoo). I would love to hear about culture clashes such as Eastern versus Western norms and Paridoner's opinion of the “backward” cultures of the Core.

The Realm – I think this is where the Law of the Sea should be outlined, not under the populace heading. You could also place the Mistways here, and highlight them as key to developing trade with far off ports.

Slaver's Rock – This is a very good addition and ties in very nicely with everything else introduced in this article.

The Circles – Weird, but every sea needs its own version of the Bermuda Triangle.

The Stormline – I like the callback to Lamordia's weird weather patterns and how it even extends out to from the coast to the sea itself.

Sites of Interest (et cetera) – Everything else under this heading is good, even if the names aren't that spectacular.

Navigation – I like this sympathetic type of navigation; it's a nice mix of fantasy and folklore. This is also where the Captains of the Mists (prestige class?) should be explored. I think it should be explained that one of the reasons so many half-vistani hold these positions is because they are seeking the companionship that their full-blooded brethren have denied them. Plus, it fulfills their natural wanderlust. It's a subtle difference in motivation, but it better explains their dominance in this arena.

Ships of the Sea of Sorrows – Yes! I want lots more of this. Just a few lines about a ship, its captain and crew, their main trade, and any noticeable features.

Sailor's Cant – I like this. Is it too much to ask for some #$%#@*& curses?

Pieter Van Riese (history) – I love that you made him origianlly from Gothic Earth. Is that canon? There's not too much to criticize here; his background is very comprehensive and compelling.

Pieter Van Riese (current sketch) – I never liked the curse of never being able to chart the seas or find his way back home. It just seems like a silly contrivance that leads to even sillier things – such as not being able to accurately measure a relatively small patch of water. Do the DPs give everybody brain damage? It just gets in the way of worldbuilding and my suspension of disbelief. Heck, the ancients were able to map and navigate the much larger Mediterrean Sea with much less advanced technology! But, this is more of a personal quibble...

The Relentless – Nice job tying it into both the Flying Dutchman legend and MotRD!

Terms of Service – I like this added dimension to the Darklord and his ship. It could be used as an interesting background for both PC and NPC alike. But, what really happens to the living who board his ship once it leaves port? Do they become ghosts? Where do they go when the ship enters the Ethereal Plane? Why are they needed at all? Do they still have the ability to go on land and perform services the other crewmembers can't? This idea needs to be elaborated on.

Off the Charts – This is a very powerful ability. I am one of those sticklers that don't like time travel in Ravenloft. It was okay for Madame Eva and her Zarovan tribe, but now it seems to be used everywhere. I have to admit, however, that I love the idea of the Renlentess showing up in Lake Zarovich or the Great Salt Marsh. This is another spot where firsthand accounts could be useful.

[Jeremy16]

Additional Thoughts

Here's my requisite added two cents:

Treasure Hunt – There is also a noticeable lack of “buried treasure” stories. I know this sea only has a few islands, but why not hint at more? There could be islands further out and not yet revealed, “disappearing islands” (my personal favorite) that are viewed from shore but vanish as you approach them, or even something akin to Harry Potter's Room of Requirement that only appears when you need it to bury treasure.

St. Elmo's Fire – Has this phenomenon been mentioned before? I think it should be presented as something unique that only happens to ships that sail the Sea of Sorrows. Just another way to differientate this from the Nocturnal Sea.

Vortex – This would be a neat feature to add to the mix. Something like a legend of a Wandering Whirlpool that appears out of nowhere and sucks down unsuspecting ships. Maybe even treat it as a mistway out of and into Saragoss? Or as a shortcut to the Nocturnal Sea?

Mermaids / Sirens - This is another unique set of monsters that should be native to this sea. Plus, compared to reavers and sea wolves encounters with these creatures would be more survivable.

The Great Barrier Reef – Why not put a fabled undewater reef along the western edge where all sorts of sea creatures are found and rumored to be the spawning ground of even more monstrous inhabitants? Maybe tie this into a sort of Gulf Stream that travels around the edges of the sea and which periodically washes up all sorts of exotic, unexpected wildlife. It could provide endless opportunites for further expoloration and adventures.

The Great Shipwreck – I know L'ile de la Tempete and Saragoss has the whole shipyard of the damn schtick cornered but I believe there should be at least one notorious shipwreck site used as a landmark in this sea. Maybe it could be related to a deadly encounter with the Relentless?

Scylla & Charybdis – I don't know where this could be fit in but I really would like to see a narrow passage between two high cliffs (like the Hellespont strait between the Black and the Meditereannean Seas) with a corresponding legend of deadly sea monsters attached to it.

[Wolfglide of the Fraternity]

St. Elmo's Fire – Has this phenomenon been mentioned before? I think it should be presented as something unique that only happens to ships that sail the Sea of Sorrows. Just another way to differientate this from the Nocturnal Sea.

St. Elmo's fire is a natural phenomenon that occurs in strong atmospheric electric fields (so probably during storms). Having it in one body of water and not the other would be a neat aesthetic difference, but it begs the question of why physics works differently between the two seas. Really, the Nocturnal Sea becomes the unique one where St. Elmo's fire does not happen.

Actually, that could be a neat red herring. People notice that St. Elmo's fire only happens in the Sea of Sorrows, and ascribe the phenomenon to that sea. However, it really is an indication that something is wrong with the Nocturnal Sea. Who or what is suppressing/stealing St. Elmo's fire?

[Nathan of the FoS]

This one was mine, so I suppose I might as well respond!

Unlike most of the other SoS articles I've reviewed, I really feel like this entry needs more added to it. The most notable thing that is lacking is monsters. Grab those sea wolves (from QTR #20) and “scalies” (from QTR #21) and throw them into the mix to make this place really come alive! Add in a few giant octopuses and krakens and you finally have something markedly different from the Nocturnal Sea.

It was a bit hard to know where to draw the line between the Sea of Sorrows and neighboring domains, especially since they are all supposed to work together and *sigh* there was supposed to be a Van Richten's Guide to Horrors of the Deep to go with it. I might have done more, certainly.

History – Tying the revelation of the sea and the first appearance of the Relentless is a nice touch. A “first hand” account here would help.

You mean, a vignette from a "historical document" written by somebody from Mordent? Could be. How did you like the companion fiction piece?

Piracy – Is the taboo on shedding blood an original idea or from canon?

It is canon, and it's pretty interesting to try to build around it and still account for all the pirates people want out there!

The “punishment” of serving on the Relentless, however, needs to be clarified. Is it only that crewmembers are doomed to never leave the ship or is there some more painful element to their servitude?

"Punishment" gets air quotes? Being cursed to spend your afterlife not only as one of the restless dead, but also answerable to the whims of a Darklord, seems pretty lousy to me.

Bordering Nations – This would be a perfect place for Mistways to be gathered and examined in detail.

I thought we did mistways? At least all the canon ones, and there are several.

Also, expand the “bordering” nations to clusters (like the Steaming Lands and Zheresia) and islands of terror (like Rokushima Taiyoo). I would love to hear about culture clashes such as Eastern versus Western norms and Paridoner's opinion of the “backward” cultures of the Core.

This is really the same difficulty I mentioned above--how much should I talk about domains that are not actually the Sea of Sorrows? For the most part I decided to maintain a tight focus, but you could cut it the other way.

Navigation – I like this sympathetic type of navigation; it's a nice mix of fantasy and folklore. This is also where the Captains of the Mists (prestige class?) should be explored. I think it should be explained that one of the reasons so many half-vistani hold these positions is because they are seeking the companionship that their full-blooded brethren have denied them. Plus, it fulfills their natural wanderlust. It's a subtle difference in motivation, but it better explains their dominance in this arena.

Glad you liked it (and the other things you've mentioned as liking, of course!) I was pretty proud of this one, since you really, really need some way of navigating the Sea of Sorrows if you can't use astral navigation and it's always changing size. I didn't want to do a full-on description of Captains of the Mists again here (funnily enough, that's another thing I wrote), since we'd covered that in the Zherisia Gazetteer, but I might have made more of how important they are.

Ships of the Sea of Sorrows – Yes! I want lots more of this. Just a few lines about a ship, its captain and crew, their main trade, and any noticeable features.

Interesting, this was one of the things I felt hardest to do effectively. You can always write some yourself, of course.

Sailor's Cant – I like this. Is it too much to ask for some #$%#@*& curses?

Not sure I curse enough to be good at this.

Pieter Van Riese (history) – I love that you made him origianlly from Gothic Earth. Is that canon? There's not too much to criticize here; his background is very comprehensive and compelling.

It isn't canon, but, weirdly, that he was searching for a Northwest Passage is actually canon. I figured, how many planes can possibly have cared about a Northwest Passage? And went from there.

Pieter Van Riese (current sketch) – I never liked the curse of never being able to chart the seas or find his way back home.

I dunno, I think it's pretty effective as something that would torment him personally even if/even though most people wouldn't care that much. I did decide to play with it a bit with allowing him to ferry people to and fro, partly because it gives another way for PCs to interact with him, partly because it kinda amused me to think how much it would gall him to feel like he can only know where he's going when he's being somebody's "errand boy."

The Relentless – Nice job tying it into both the Flying Dutchman legend and MotRD!

Terms of Service – I like this added dimension to the Darklord and his ship. It could be used as an interesting background for both PC and NPC alike. But, what really happens to the living who board his ship once it leaves port? Do they become ghosts? Where do they go when the ship enters the Ethereal Plane? Why are they needed at all? Do they still have the ability to go on land and perform services the other crewmembers can't? This idea needs to be elaborated on.

This is indeed slightly under-baked, but I felt like it was necessary to support some of the "known facts" about him while still making sense.

WRT what happens to them--they enter the Deep Ethereal, where the difference between the living and the dead becomes largely academic. They aren't needed, per se--Van Riese can control the ship perfectly without any crew at all--but he likes having people to boss around, punish, or sell to the highest bidder. This is another thing that the short fiction (titled "Relentless," appearing just before the article proper) touches on.

Off the Charts – This is a very powerful ability. I am one of those sticklers that don't like time travel in Ravenloft. It was okay for Madame Eva and her Zarovan tribe, but now it seems to be used everywhere. I have to admit, however, that I love the idea of the Renlentess showing up in Lake Zarovich or the Great Salt Marsh. This is another spot where firsthand accounts could be useful.

I put this in because the Relentless is one of the...four?...Rank 5 Sinkholes of Evil in the Demiplane (the others being Castle Tristenoira, the Phantom Lover's Tower, and the Butcher Street Boarding House, iirc). I figure a Rank 5 Sinkhole of Evil is basically a rip in the fabric of reality, with all kinds of temporal and physical distortions accompanying it (as we see with Tristenoira (time) and the Tower (domain boundaries).) Plus, it works well with the connection to Gothic Earth while avoiding the possibility of accidentally forcing synchronization of Gothic Earth and Ravenloft, which could be slightly embarrassing in some campaigns.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

Pieter Van Riese (current sketch) – I never liked the curse of never being able to chart the seas or find his way back home.

I dunno, I think it's pretty effective as something that would torment him personally even if/even though most people wouldn't care that much. I did decide to play with it a bit with allowing him to ferry people to and fro, partly because it gives another way for PCs to interact with him, partly because it kinda amused me to think how much it would gall him to feel like he can only know where he's going when he's being somebody's "errand boy."

I agree curses are designed to be frustrating, troublesome or dangerous to a particular person, for a landlover not being able to chart the waters would be a minor flaw, but for a man who has spend most of his life at sea, who has sacrificed everything he had including his soul to be able to chart the seas would be the worst thing that could happen to him. Then on 5th edition Pieter's gender changed and she became a pirate more closely resembling a villain from Pirates of the Caribbean... (lame writing there). Van Riese in the QtR version is really well written, congrats, if only the developers of VRGtR had bothered to write even a portion of what Nathan wrote it would be a far better book.

Off the Charts – This is a very powerful ability. I am one of those sticklers that don't like time travel in Ravenloft. It was okay for Madame Eva and her Zarovan tribe, but now it seems to be used everywhere. I have to admit, however, that I love the idea of the Renlentess showing up in Lake Zarovich or the Great Salt Marsh. This is another spot where firsthand accounts could be useful.

I put this in because the Relentless is one of the...four?...Rank 5 Sinkholes of Evil in the Demiplane (the others being Castle Tristenoira, the Phantom Lover's Tower, and the Butcher Street Boarding House, iirc). I figure a Rank 5 Sinkhole of Evil is basically a rip in the fabric of reality, with all kinds of temporal and physical distortions accompanying it (as we see with Tristenoira (time) and the Tower (domain boundaries).) Plus, it works well with the connection to Gothic Earth while avoiding the possibility of accidentally forcing synchronization of Gothic Earth and Ravenloft, which could be slightly embarrassing in some campaigns.

Good answer. I personally really like that time travelling aspect of the Relenless and I have already used it in an article of mine in QtR27. I have to say I based the Relentless opera I wrote of to Nathan's article.

[Jeremy16]

To be fair, most of the things I pointed out as not liking (time travel, unchartable waters) are more personal quibbles than anything.

As for the rest:

You mean, a vignette from a "historical document" written by somebody from Mordent? Could be. How did you like the companion fiction piece?

Yep, I read it, but I'm a sucker for fluff text such as the many "excerpts" given within the Van Richten Guides. I think it's an easy way to add flavor to descriptions.

"Punishment" gets air quotes? Being cursed to spend your afterlife not only as one of the restless dead, but also answerable to the whims of a Darklord, seems pretty lousy to me.

I think a direct line or two about how crappy he treats his crew (highlighting how he hasn't really learned his lesson even after all these years) would make the point clearer.

I thought we did mistways? At least all the canon ones, and there are several.

Yeah, but I love the concept of Mistways and am never adverse to adding more.

Glad you liked it (and the other things you've mentioned as liking, of course!) I was pretty proud of this one, since you really, really need some way of navigating the Sea of Sorrows if you can't use astral navigation and it's always changing size. I didn't want to do a full-on description of Captains of the Mists again here (funnily enough, that's another thing I wrote), since we'd covered that in the Zherisia Gazetteer, but I might have made more of how important they are.

Funnily enough, I didn't like the concept of Captains of the Mists at first, but eventually came around to your way of thinking after reading how it was applied here!

[Pizza]

Never understood boards that don’t like “thread resurrections.” If you hate the past so much just delete threads once they reach a certain age.

[Rock of the Fraternity]

It might be valid for forums where there's a lot more arguing and flaming going on. Nobody in their right mind wants some wiseguy to resurrect an argument that already threatened to tear the whole community apart before.

[Joël of the FoS]

Never understood boards that don’t like “thread resurrections.” If you hate the past so much just delete threads once they reach a certain age.

We never prune the FoS boards so it becomes a collective source of information, for anyone able to use the search engine. Soon there will be 20 years of thoughts collected in those boards.

We very rarely "close" a thread or moderate these boards. It's a pleasure to see how people here are well mannered and how the community feeling is strong.

And we do not mind having hot debates here, as long as it stays mannerly. Do not try to read an answer further than what is just written. And keep your ego in check when you answer a post

[Jeremy16]

Never understood boards that don’t like “thread resurrections.” If you hate the past so much just delete threads once they reach a certain age.

To be clear, none of the Fraternity has said anything to me about it. I just felt bad referencing things from 8-9 years ago that I wasn't sure anyone except me would be interested in. Doing a review of the Fraternity's almost complete Sea of Sorrows gazetteer project (come on, guys, you've only got one more domain [Markovia] to go!) has been on my to-do list forever. Just for posterity's sake (alright, for me, when I inevitably come back to this thread in another 8-9 years...) here's links to the rest of the reviews:

BLAUSTEIN

http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/foru ... f=1&t=5794

DEMISE

http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/foru ... f=1&t=9132

DOMINIA

http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/foru ... =1&t=10691

GHASTRIA

http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/foru ... f=1&t=5898

[Pizza]

Never understood boards that don’t like “thread resurrections.” If you hate the past so much just delete threads once they reach a certain age.

We never prune the FoS boards so it becomes a collective source of information, for anyone able to use the search engine. Soon there will be 20 years of thoughts collected in those boards.

We very rarely "close" a thread or moderate these boards. It's a pleasure to see how people here are well mannered and how the community feeling is strong.

And we do not mind having hot debates here, as long as it stays mannerly. Do not try to read an answer further than what is just written. And keep your ego in check when you answer a post

No ego here. I’ve just never understood why anyone would have issues with it.

[Joël of the FoS]

Never understood boards that don’t like “thread resurrections.” If you hate the past so much just delete threads once they reach a certain age.

We never prune the FoS boards so it becomes a collective source of information, for anyone able to use the search engine. Soon there will be 20 years of thoughts collected in those boards.

We very rarely "close" a thread or moderate these boards. It's a pleasure to see how people here are well mannered and how the community feeling is strong.

And we do not mind having hot debates here, as long as it stays mannerly. Do not try to read an answer further than what is just written. And keep your ego in check when you answer a post

No ego here. I’ve just never understood why anyone would have issues with it.

My comment was not targeting you. It was a good advice given to all in general.