WotC: Novels and Non-5E Lore Are Officially Not Canon

[Mephisto of the FoS]

For example, Soth is and should remain that darklord of Sithicus. 3e-canon was not always consistent with TSR-canon.

Why exactly is that? Although Spectre of the Black Rose was published during 2e WotC and not TSR, the continuity and later characters are interesting. Inza sounds like a good character for the reverse effect throughout the domain (forgetfulness of guilt replaced by constant guilt), the stone giant although a bit high fantasy was a strange addition which is OK and Azrael is enriched as a character. The Bloody Gobbler and Whispering Beast will be missed as is Sothy.

[TwiceBorn Reborn]

It's interesting to see WotC's approach to D&D canon back when 3.0 was on the verge of being released in 2000, as per Ryan Dancey:

https://www.enworld.org/threads/wotc-on ... 00.681773/

I especially like this quote:

First, the amount of knowledge that will be considered "cannon" has to be of
a reasonably minimal size. It is simply impossible to keep every piece of
fact accurate and checked when the volume of such material expands to the
size of something like one of our popular campaign worlds. Trying to do so
has created false expectations in the consumer population, and triggered
numerous conflicts within the company.

Second, there is a lot of data that contradicts itself. This is bound to
happen when you have multiple sources for the content that are not centrally
managed, and over time, even central management tends to change focus and
introduce conflicts. Therefore, not every single fact in every single
product >can< be considered cannon - something must be dropped.

Third, some of the material produced for our worlds is crap. Pulling no
punches, not every word written under the banner of a D&D world logo is
suitable for print or should ever have been published. Rather than hold our
noses and pretend that such material is signficant, we're going to simply
pretend that it does not exist and stop trying to patch it up or fix it.

Ultimately, I have to agree with that statement. I am a fan of Greyhawk, and trust me, that product line had some real stinkers; same goes with all TSR/WotC product lines. I also own every RL book, module, and novel ever published, except for convention exclusives and what I deem to be "collector's editions," including CoS revamped and the Beadles and Grimms stuff.

We may not all agree on what qualifies as "crap," and may even end up arguing over the colour and consistency of shite.

And remember, the above Dancey quote is pre-3.0, but seems consistent with the official 5.0 perspective. I don't recall anyone at WotC specifically calling out any specific RL products or content from previous editions as crap, but having received my copy of VRGttM, I ultimately am satisfied with the present state of Ravenloft products (even though IMC, RL remains essentially as described in 2E and the Gaz series).

That doesn't mean I like all of the changes it has made to the Domains of Dread in 5.0, but then, there were also a lot of things in 2e Ravenloft that caused a lot of head scratching.

Whether we're talking Greyhawk, Ravenloft, or any other game world, I have always been "that guy" who tries to reconcile all contradictory info in official published sources so that they "make sense." On the one hand, I have taken great enjoyment in this quasi-academic and highly creative enterprise. But on the other hand, it has also driven me to burn out as a DM... as a perfectionist with a history of depression and anxiety, I spend far too much time obsessing over the details of imaginary timelines, events, and NPCs, details that my players will never even notice. I've been planning my first Greyhawk /D&D campaign in years during the pandemic, I'm not sure if we'll ever get to play in person (wave 4/Delta variant is on the upsurge and I have zero faith in our provincial government nor, to be frank, in many of my fellow citizens) and we don't care much for online gaming. Through countless hours spent trying to reconcile background info for this campaign that may never see the light of day, I'm already starting to feel my enthusiasm dampen...

Yes, I have problems I need to deal with, and have been dealing with.

But all these recent discussions of VRGtR and WotC's approach to canon have just reaffirmed what has always been true about D&D, but that I have failed to apply in practice: take what you like, leave what you don't. Everything does NOT have to fit seamlessly.

Now, if I could only apply that lesson in person, I would probably be much happier.

And in the end, I am happy that Ravenloft lives on. To me, it is different, yet still recognizable, and I'm happy that younger generations will have an opportunity to discover and enjoy the setting, even though there remains much that I prefer in the content from previous editions (and especially the Arthaus Gaz series). If I were a young, new D&D player, I'd think VRGtR and CoS were awesome, and they would no doubt be a springboard to great memories. Heck, my 47 year-old self is looking forward to running a modified CoS someday.

I am old enough to be considered a "grognard" (having started playing D&D in the mid-80s with the red box Basic set), and given how much negativity I see everywhere in real life, I'm realizing that it serves no purpose for me to pile on the negativity in gaming product discussions. Even just reading constant negativity about a hobby I enjoy so much but don't get to play nearly as often as I'd like leaves me feeling drained.

And I can only imagine how demoralizing it must be to authors to have their work derided, reviled, or described as "lazy"... by armchair quarterbacks (EDIT: no offence intended). Because make no mistake, that's what most of us are. I'm all for constructive criticism, but I've decided not to hurl insults or "read into" why an author, game designer, or publisher published what they did.

If I like it, I'll use it, if not, then I won't... must resist temptation to over-rationalize everything and make it coherent.

All that to say... I am cool with VRGtR, and with WotC's approach to "nu canon."

[Mephisto of the FoS]

Reading the article you sent I couldn't resist thinking of Champions of Darkness and Sheriff Von Zarovich and the Order of the Ebon Gargoyle. This is a case of something that has appeared in an official gaming product, so probably considered canon but the majority of Ravenloft DM's (including me*) refuse to use.

* Strahd has made a pact with Madame Eva to gain information from around the Core and his domain he doesn't need a Barovian version of the Kargat.

[Mistmaster]

Well, my Barovia does have its Secret Service.

[brothersale]

Personally i've used them, just not in the way that was intended. Basically i used all the text about them and the Sheriff as a massive propaganda [one booked marked section and left in the room with a snoopy player, while attending to something, really works wonders sometimes].

VIEW CONTENT:

I have the real order exist as a band of thugs (rogues/fighters) that act as boogymen to keep the Gundarakites scared and prevent them from rebelling openly. The Sheriff has actually been three people and is a role that is taken by the head of the group when the previous one dies.

Zurov (the priest) and Lazara (the wizard) are the only ones of those classes in the order for the most part and act as support for the order.

The real power behind the order are the Vespertine.

So based on this alone i agree that cannon is important as stated before to form the baseline for the setting and how far you houserule the setting. Throw it out and you might as well be building the entire setting yourself every single time for each new player as nothing will carry forward for returning player when the next edition comes out.

[dreamingdark]

Having looked at this and what was done to Ravenloft and it just re-confirms my decision at the start of 5e. This will be the last edition of D&D I buy. They are banking on all the new players that have joined the hobby in recent years. These rebooted settings are not for the old fans and I am betting they want to shift them all to the stance Eberron has had since its beginning. The timeline never advances, no published material is canon unless you at the table say that book or adventure happened and affected the setting. Its not a terrible idea for how to handle settings if the setting starts out with that idea built in. Will make it very simple to do the new versions of the settings for future editions of the game.

With this in mind I know that I do not need to buy any of the books for settings I already own. Maybe take a flip through the book at the local store and at most perhaps buy just the mechanics parts of the book through D&D beyond if they seem worth it.

I know someone who got into gaming in just the past few years. Focused primarily on Pathfinder 1e. They picked up the new Ravenloft book and really liked it. For those with nothing to compare it to the new setting books will likely sell just fine.

To be honest what WotC did to Ravenloft and this announcement has sort of soured me on the whole of 5e. These days looking more and more at OSR stuff especially since Worlds Without Number came out. Easy way to use all my old materials with a more modern mechanical scheme.

Going to be interesting to see how much of a train wreck they make out of Dark Sun if they even make the attempt to release it.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

Personally i've used them, just not in the way that was intended.

Well your spoiler is much better than the original, now that's sounds like a good development to use, as I kind of liked the executioner style of Mr. Sheriff

[alhoon]

If I had to pick, Gaz-era was in my opinion the best although it had its flaws.
BUT: thankfully, I don't have to pick. I can cherry-pick.

[Zilfer]

I'm currently using Order of the Ebon Gargoyle but not straight out of the book.

VIEW CONTENT:

I have them mostly focused on any threats within the realm of Barovia and recently they have become compromised due to some shenanigans with Gwydion trying to stretch his influence beyond that of the Shadow Rift. I really like the idea of a oubliette for their main base of operations being just a tower in the mists. (I believe bookwise it's only where the wizards are trained but I am expanding it to say anyone trained into the order is trained there in that small section of land floating off in the Mists.