Right now I'm in the middle of (hopefully really close to the end of) a mammoth project of putting together a definitive rulebook to have available for the campaign I'm starting up in a few weeks. One thing I always regretted in previous campaigns is players not having access to all the available options for their characters as all of the spells, feats, and classes were spread over a bunch of books geared primarily at DMs (hell, I didn't even know the Voodan class was a thing till as month ago when I took a more in depth look through my copy Dark Tales and Disturbing Legends, which I only read partially before and couldn't believe they had a starting character class option buried in the back of a DM book), with the exceptions of a couple products like the VRA and HoL (and the Ravenloft Players Handbook which came out toward the end of the 3e line). I remember everyone wanted a turn flipping through books like Song and Silence for Forgotten Realms and default AD&D back in the days of 3e to look at all the sweet options for their characters, but there was never a Ravenloft product like that, so only a couple prestige characters (and even less feats and spells) got used in any of my previous campaigns. (also of course - especially compared to the stuff in books like Song of Silence which could be a min/maxing meta player's dream and a DM's nightmare - the Ravenloft stuff for players paled in comparison). And between that, the fact that 3e has been outdated by a decade or so now, and that I'm using the Vitality/Wound point and Base Defense Score alternate rules plus some of my own house rules - I wanted to have a compilation that had everything a player could ever want access for my to in one spot without having to go through a bunch of different documents to find all the rules related to a single issue like how cure light wounds works. So I took all the 3.5 rules, incorporated all the published RL specific new rules along with all the RL skills, equipment, feats, etc, incorporated the alternate rules systems and the modifications I was making myself, and even went into the individual spells and incorporated all of the Ravenloft rules changes to them (that took a LOT longer than I was expecting - that altered spell list didn't seem nearly so long long whenever I was just flipping through that part of the book before)
I (probably very foolishly) figured while I was doing that I would go into all the prestige classes and try to get them to line up with each other better as far as balance and my style of campaign. My goal with these was to make sure each one was overall a little better than a starting class since you had to work harder to get it, but with the caveat that each one was more specialized while the starting classes were still better in broader terms, like melee combat in general for the fighter/barbarian/monk, throwing fireballs around for wizard, etc. I'm most of the way done with them and some I'm really happy with, some I'm content with and some - well, I hope they work out. I'll start posting each of them to this thread for perusal and (possible) enjoyment of others. With each one I'll give the basic statline, abilities, and what I changed and my reasoning. Hope you all enjoy!
New takes on prestige classes
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Voorhees Carnivean
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Voorhees Carnivean
- Conspirator
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:42 pm
- Gender: Male
Re: New takes on prestige classes
THE AVENGER
This one I just finished. The statline is basically the same. It's a ten level prestige class with the good Will and Fort saves, the best BAB, and as I'm using the Defense in place of Armor Class variant rules, I gave him the second best Base Defense Bonus progression.
For now I'm keeping the 2 skill points per level, but thinking of maybe upping to 4. If you have any thoughts after reading this, let me know.
And he has d10 HD, which I think is the same (don't have the book handy).
For requirements, I upped the BAB from +3 to +4, added the Die Hard feat because I think it fits, changed Gather Info from 2 to 6 and Sense Motive from 6 to 4 (for reasons which you'll see in a bit)
I went through all the prestige classes at the beginning and took a look at what the most common, easiest path to each of these and what the earliest level and have been trying to keep that in mind as I'm doing these as far as what kind of abilities players will have at what average party level. For this guy, most players want to take him will multiclass and can therefore most likely get him at level 5.
For the "Special" part under the Requirements section, I added some additional wording. It now reads: The avenger must have suffered some disaster at the hands of a foe that escape punishment. The hunt (or this nemesis is the avenger's driving force. An avenger without a nemesis (or who destroys her nemesis) cannot gain avenger levels. The player and DM should work together to develop an avenger's nemesis. An ideal nemesis should be a worthy foe (at least +2 CR above the avenger's character level), and should have lesser minions for the avenger [0 encounter before a final confrontation.
Should the nemesis be ultimately killed or vanquished, it is possible a new nemesis can be assigned, in which case the character would treat the new nemesis the same as their old one for the purposes of their existing class abilities and would be able to continue advancing in the prestige class. In some cases, this may happen almost immediately, such as if the previous nemesis were revealed to be working under the orders of an even more powerful enemy who had been operating from the shadows recently. In other cases, where all who were directly responsible for the inciting incident have been dealt justice to, the player will have to wait for a new villain to come along who meets the requirements for a nemesis as if they were just starting the prestige class. In the meantime, they may still be able in some cases to use some of their class abilities when dealing with foes who remind them of the vanquished nemesis, however (see below).
At first glance - essentially what a player will be doing when scanning through 40 or so prestige classes - it kind of seemed before like he's worthless after he kills the nemesis and I wanted to make it more clear and show some examples of how players will still get everything out of the class if the nemesis dies.
And here are the abilities.
Weapons and Armor unchanged
Intuition (Ex): Whenever the avenger enters a new locale or discovers a new avenue of investigation, they may make a Gather Information check using the DCs’ listed in the table above to follow their trail. If the nemesis (or their minions or direct representatives of their influence) is currently in the same domain or demographic region, the character may be able to get information about their whereabouts. This check may be made (or retried) daily.
Note that Sense Motive is considered to have skill synergy for the purposes of this check, as the avenger knows the nemesis so well they may intuitively know what direction to look in due to analyzing the motives and observed behavior of their nemesis.
Also note that in the complete wilderness, where a Gather Information check would not apply, the closest applicable skill may be used instead (such as Survival), again treating Sense Motive as having skill synergy. (of course, in such a case the DM may raise the DC of the check based on the environment and the nemesis. It will be much harder tracking down the fiend who runs the criminal underworld of a large city while down in a forested ravine in the middle of nowhere, for example)
The information learned through these checks could be related to the location of the nemesis (or something directly related to the nemesis) or if not in a region where the nemesis is currently residing, has travelled through, or has some influence in, the information may be a piece of lore or rumor about the nemesis or just simply an epiphany the avenger has about their nemesis. Depending on the level of success, the avenger will get better information. For example using location, and assuming the nemesis is in the same region, If the check succeeds by 5 or more, the avenger can narrow the nemesis' probable location to an area the size of a large city. If she succeeds by 10 or more, she can narrow the location down to a specific neighborhood within that city. If she succeeds by 15 or more, she can narrow her focus down to a handful of specific "usual hideouts" within that neighborhood. Many times, the closest things to the avenger geographically will be the first to be picked up on. A character who makes the check in one city will most likely realize that pack of ghouls the nemesis created is operating out of the local graveyard before they realize the nemesis himself is currently in another city.
Additionally, every time the avenger succeeds on a check, they may add a +1 competence bonus to the next check (which can be made as soon as the next day) for every two increments (rounded down) that they beat the current check by. This is cumulative up to a bonus of +5. Should the avenger fail a check, of should that avenue or well of information run dry (if the character has gone through all of the local hideouts, foiled the local operations of the nemesis, ended his influence in the area, eliminated all of his minions in the region, and discovered the villain is currently operating out of a city on the other side of the domain, any further checks the avenger makes while in that place will not amount to anything and the avenger will have to go to a new place or discover a new avenue of investigation before making another check), the avenger loses the bonus as he has lost the scent and must pick it up again.
Resolve (Ex):
When facing her nemesis in combat, an avenger gains an effective morale bonus to her Constitution and Wisdom based on her avenger levels: +2 at 2nd level , +4 at 4th level , +6 at 6th level, +8 at 8th level , and + 10 at 10th level. In addition, the avenger also receives a +2 morale bonus to attack and damage rolls at 4th level and +4 at 8th level. The bonus lasts as long as the avenger battles her nemesis, plus a number of rounds equal to the half number of levels (rounded down) the character has in the prestige class. Thus, a 10th level avenger's Constitution and Wisdom would drop back to normal five rounds after ending combat with her nemesis. The increase in Constitution modifies Fortitude saves and grants the avenger temporary hit points, but these hit points go away when her Constitution returns to normal. The increase in Wisdom modifies Will saves and Wisdom-based skills, making it easier for an avenger to see through deception, resist intimidation, and so forth.
Note that the avenger need not be personally engaged in combat to receive this bonus – the nemesis need only be present in an antagonistic capacity, such as a battle of wits over a card game in a tavern, an attempt at threatening or blackmailing the character, negotiation over the release of hostages, or a combat encounter where the avenger may not be fighting the nemesis face to face (or at least, not yet) but that the nemesis is directly controlling the forces the avenger is currently fighting, either at the rear of a horde of minions or using some kind of spell or telepathic link to control the combatant the avenger is engaged with (though the character must be aware of the fact that he is in the direct presence of his nemesis in order to receive this bonus).
The avenger also gains half of the same bonuses when opposing creatures the avenger knows to be minions of her nemesis, or who strongly remind her of her nemesis So for example, an avenger who would normally get a +4 bonus to Wisdom and Constitution and +2 bonus to attack and damage rolls when facing the vampire lord who is their nemesis would gain a +2 bonus to Wisdom and Constitution and a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls when fighting the vampire lord’s undead minions. Note that in the case of enemies not associated with the nemesis but who may remind the avenger of their nemesis, it should be left to the DM’s discretion, and the player should have to present a reasonable in-character argument for this. A good rule of thumb would be that if this were something similar enough that would it provoke a Will save were it related to a scene a character previously failed a horror save for, then it’s similar enough that they should get the morale bonus.
For Intuition it used to be basically that you make a Sense Motive check once per day to see where the currently nemesis is, so again, at first glance it comes off as there's nothing more to this guy than 'you take the class, pick a nemesis, go find him and kill him and then start looking for another career'. I wanted it to be less like a GPS tracker on the nemesis and more of that you're actively searching for any information you can find about your nemesis, learning their weaknesses, what makes him or her tick, making your way through their underlings in your path of revenge, stamping out any sign of their power or influence whenever you find it, etc.
The Resolve part is basically unchanged. I added the attack and damage bonus to make him a little better and also added some new wording to more define when the character would get the half bonus for an enemy who reminds the character of their nemesis, to pin it down more.
And that's my take on the Avenger. When dealing with the nemesis I feel now he's still going to be better than fighter with combat related bonus feats, and when not in combat against the nemesis he still has some useful abilities to the party since finding out about where the nemesis and their minions are and how to defeat them is probably going to be in line with the aims of the party most of the time. And the player can't get access to him too early so that having a +2 or +4 to attack and damage in certain situations is going to vastly overshadow the other characters in the group and unbalance the game.
This one I just finished. The statline is basically the same. It's a ten level prestige class with the good Will and Fort saves, the best BAB, and as I'm using the Defense in place of Armor Class variant rules, I gave him the second best Base Defense Bonus progression.
For now I'm keeping the 2 skill points per level, but thinking of maybe upping to 4. If you have any thoughts after reading this, let me know.
And he has d10 HD, which I think is the same (don't have the book handy).
For requirements, I upped the BAB from +3 to +4, added the Die Hard feat because I think it fits, changed Gather Info from 2 to 6 and Sense Motive from 6 to 4 (for reasons which you'll see in a bit)
I went through all the prestige classes at the beginning and took a look at what the most common, easiest path to each of these and what the earliest level and have been trying to keep that in mind as I'm doing these as far as what kind of abilities players will have at what average party level. For this guy, most players want to take him will multiclass and can therefore most likely get him at level 5.
For the "Special" part under the Requirements section, I added some additional wording. It now reads: The avenger must have suffered some disaster at the hands of a foe that escape punishment. The hunt (or this nemesis is the avenger's driving force. An avenger without a nemesis (or who destroys her nemesis) cannot gain avenger levels. The player and DM should work together to develop an avenger's nemesis. An ideal nemesis should be a worthy foe (at least +2 CR above the avenger's character level), and should have lesser minions for the avenger [0 encounter before a final confrontation.
Should the nemesis be ultimately killed or vanquished, it is possible a new nemesis can be assigned, in which case the character would treat the new nemesis the same as their old one for the purposes of their existing class abilities and would be able to continue advancing in the prestige class. In some cases, this may happen almost immediately, such as if the previous nemesis were revealed to be working under the orders of an even more powerful enemy who had been operating from the shadows recently. In other cases, where all who were directly responsible for the inciting incident have been dealt justice to, the player will have to wait for a new villain to come along who meets the requirements for a nemesis as if they were just starting the prestige class. In the meantime, they may still be able in some cases to use some of their class abilities when dealing with foes who remind them of the vanquished nemesis, however (see below).
At first glance - essentially what a player will be doing when scanning through 40 or so prestige classes - it kind of seemed before like he's worthless after he kills the nemesis and I wanted to make it more clear and show some examples of how players will still get everything out of the class if the nemesis dies.
And here are the abilities.
Weapons and Armor unchanged
Intuition (Ex): Whenever the avenger enters a new locale or discovers a new avenue of investigation, they may make a Gather Information check using the DCs’ listed in the table above to follow their trail. If the nemesis (or their minions or direct representatives of their influence) is currently in the same domain or demographic region, the character may be able to get information about their whereabouts. This check may be made (or retried) daily.
Note that Sense Motive is considered to have skill synergy for the purposes of this check, as the avenger knows the nemesis so well they may intuitively know what direction to look in due to analyzing the motives and observed behavior of their nemesis.
Also note that in the complete wilderness, where a Gather Information check would not apply, the closest applicable skill may be used instead (such as Survival), again treating Sense Motive as having skill synergy. (of course, in such a case the DM may raise the DC of the check based on the environment and the nemesis. It will be much harder tracking down the fiend who runs the criminal underworld of a large city while down in a forested ravine in the middle of nowhere, for example)
The information learned through these checks could be related to the location of the nemesis (or something directly related to the nemesis) or if not in a region where the nemesis is currently residing, has travelled through, or has some influence in, the information may be a piece of lore or rumor about the nemesis or just simply an epiphany the avenger has about their nemesis. Depending on the level of success, the avenger will get better information. For example using location, and assuming the nemesis is in the same region, If the check succeeds by 5 or more, the avenger can narrow the nemesis' probable location to an area the size of a large city. If she succeeds by 10 or more, she can narrow the location down to a specific neighborhood within that city. If she succeeds by 15 or more, she can narrow her focus down to a handful of specific "usual hideouts" within that neighborhood. Many times, the closest things to the avenger geographically will be the first to be picked up on. A character who makes the check in one city will most likely realize that pack of ghouls the nemesis created is operating out of the local graveyard before they realize the nemesis himself is currently in another city.
Additionally, every time the avenger succeeds on a check, they may add a +1 competence bonus to the next check (which can be made as soon as the next day) for every two increments (rounded down) that they beat the current check by. This is cumulative up to a bonus of +5. Should the avenger fail a check, of should that avenue or well of information run dry (if the character has gone through all of the local hideouts, foiled the local operations of the nemesis, ended his influence in the area, eliminated all of his minions in the region, and discovered the villain is currently operating out of a city on the other side of the domain, any further checks the avenger makes while in that place will not amount to anything and the avenger will have to go to a new place or discover a new avenue of investigation before making another check), the avenger loses the bonus as he has lost the scent and must pick it up again.
Resolve (Ex):
When facing her nemesis in combat, an avenger gains an effective morale bonus to her Constitution and Wisdom based on her avenger levels: +2 at 2nd level , +4 at 4th level , +6 at 6th level, +8 at 8th level , and + 10 at 10th level. In addition, the avenger also receives a +2 morale bonus to attack and damage rolls at 4th level and +4 at 8th level. The bonus lasts as long as the avenger battles her nemesis, plus a number of rounds equal to the half number of levels (rounded down) the character has in the prestige class. Thus, a 10th level avenger's Constitution and Wisdom would drop back to normal five rounds after ending combat with her nemesis. The increase in Constitution modifies Fortitude saves and grants the avenger temporary hit points, but these hit points go away when her Constitution returns to normal. The increase in Wisdom modifies Will saves and Wisdom-based skills, making it easier for an avenger to see through deception, resist intimidation, and so forth.
Note that the avenger need not be personally engaged in combat to receive this bonus – the nemesis need only be present in an antagonistic capacity, such as a battle of wits over a card game in a tavern, an attempt at threatening or blackmailing the character, negotiation over the release of hostages, or a combat encounter where the avenger may not be fighting the nemesis face to face (or at least, not yet) but that the nemesis is directly controlling the forces the avenger is currently fighting, either at the rear of a horde of minions or using some kind of spell or telepathic link to control the combatant the avenger is engaged with (though the character must be aware of the fact that he is in the direct presence of his nemesis in order to receive this bonus).
The avenger also gains half of the same bonuses when opposing creatures the avenger knows to be minions of her nemesis, or who strongly remind her of her nemesis So for example, an avenger who would normally get a +4 bonus to Wisdom and Constitution and +2 bonus to attack and damage rolls when facing the vampire lord who is their nemesis would gain a +2 bonus to Wisdom and Constitution and a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls when fighting the vampire lord’s undead minions. Note that in the case of enemies not associated with the nemesis but who may remind the avenger of their nemesis, it should be left to the DM’s discretion, and the player should have to present a reasonable in-character argument for this. A good rule of thumb would be that if this were something similar enough that would it provoke a Will save were it related to a scene a character previously failed a horror save for, then it’s similar enough that they should get the morale bonus.
For Intuition it used to be basically that you make a Sense Motive check once per day to see where the currently nemesis is, so again, at first glance it comes off as there's nothing more to this guy than 'you take the class, pick a nemesis, go find him and kill him and then start looking for another career'. I wanted it to be less like a GPS tracker on the nemesis and more of that you're actively searching for any information you can find about your nemesis, learning their weaknesses, what makes him or her tick, making your way through their underlings in your path of revenge, stamping out any sign of their power or influence whenever you find it, etc.
The Resolve part is basically unchanged. I added the attack and damage bonus to make him a little better and also added some new wording to more define when the character would get the half bonus for an enemy who reminds the character of their nemesis, to pin it down more.
And that's my take on the Avenger. When dealing with the nemesis I feel now he's still going to be better than fighter with combat related bonus feats, and when not in combat against the nemesis he still has some useful abilities to the party since finding out about where the nemesis and their minions are and how to defeat them is probably going to be in line with the aims of the party most of the time. And the player can't get access to him too early so that having a +2 or +4 to attack and damage in certain situations is going to vastly overshadow the other characters in the group and unbalance the game.
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Resonant Curse
- Evil Genius
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Re: New takes on prestige classes
If you want, I have excel sheets I made that list the location and type for almost all feats, spells, prestige classes, familiars, and a few other things. The list includes all Dragon and Dungeon magaziens, every third editiom product except I think 3 or 4 (Races of the Wild, Lords of Madness, Fiendish Codex 2 are I think all that are missing) and some of the third party sources that were at some point licensed products like Dave Arnesson's Blackmoor, Legend of the 5 Rings, etc.
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Jester of the FoS
- Jester of the Dark Comedy
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Re: New takes on prestige classes
Sounds neat.Voorhees Carnivean wrote:Right now I'm in the middle of (hopefully really close to the end of) a mammoth project of putting together a definitive rulebook to have available for the campaign I'm starting up in a few weeks.
With 3.5e Ravenloft "finished" it'd be easy to compile all the rules into a single document. And with a better idea of rules balance—after three to four times as long to play and absorb feats as the writers—you can tweak the suboptimal options.