[VRGtR]: Alhoon's ramblings and discussions of them

[alhoon]

In just over a week, people here have shown more creativity with new domains than the writers have in, I would hazard a guess at least 6 months of writing.

Drinnik, many of us here, do that for over 20 years. Unless I remember wrong, you're in the 20+ years in the net group too. All the way back from SotK. On top of having dozens of members with decades of DMing and benefiting from talking to each other, we have had various developers of the campaign stopping by, for 2e and 3e.

If 100 of us, that do this for 20-25 years without constrains from publishes, sensitivity readers, twitterborn babies etc couldn't do better in a week, I would be surprised.
It is also much easier to improve on something than make it from the beginning. (Which makes it kinda puzzling why they chose to make so many things from the beginning).

[Drinnik Shoehorn]

In just over a week, people here have shown more creativity with new domains than the writers have in, I would hazard a guess at least 6 months of writing.

Drinnik, many of us here, do that for over 20 years. Unless I remember wrong, you're in the 20+ years in the net group too. All the way back from SotK. On top of having dozens of members with decades of DMing and benefiting from talking to each other, we have had various developers of the campaign stopping by, for 2e and 3e.

If 100 of us, that do this for 20-25 years without constrains from publishes, sensitivity readers, twitterborn babies etc couldn't do better in a week, I would be surprised.
It is also much easier to improve on something than make it from the beginning. (Which makes it kinda puzzling why they chose to make so many things from the beginning).

I’m referring specifically to the material in this book.

We’re a great creative community, and always have been. But we’re “amateurs”, and we should not be rewriting a brand new book written by “professionals.”

Yes, people have always cherrypicked, but they have cherrypicked from multiple decent options. Here the cherry picking is to make sure you don’t get a fruit that’s rotten or have a worm in it.

[alhoon]

Curse of Strahd was professional.
This is ... not professional. But I am happy with my purchase regardless and I think it will bring people to the setting. The old books are still there to buy. Also, I may be in the minority but I honestly find some stuff to make more sense in the "glossed over to get it over with quickly" 5e version than the numerous 2e and 3e versions. Also the darklords, even the ones I don't like, feel more ... diverse. Not in the SJW sense but there is a greater variability to their evil. We get much more than gothic horror here. More than the handful stereotypes of evil. How many vampire darklords the core had? How many darklords that were bad to their spouse (including Soth)?

We didn't have a darklord hunting poseurs and imposters, with ghoul servants sweeping the dust, I can tell you that.
New Isolde also makes more sense IMO than "trapped celestial that has a paladin's body". Make her a paladin and be done with it. And the sword was a good idea too.

Still, other things are hot garbage, that's not something I will deny. There are some good ideas executed well, some good ideas executed poorly and some bad ideas.

[kourkenko]

Curse of Strahd was professional.
This is ... not professional. But I am happy with my purchase regardless and I think it will bring people to the setting. The old books are still there to buy. Also, I may be in the minority but I honestly find some stuff to make more sense in the "glossed over to get it over with quickly" 5e version than the numerous 2e and 3e versions. Also the darklords, even the ones I don't like, feel more ... diverse. Not in the SJW sense but there is a greater variability to their evil. We get much more than gothic horror here. More than the handful stereotypes of evil. How many vampire darklords the core had? How many darklords that were bad to their spouse (including Soth)?

We didn't have a darklord hunting poseurs and imposters, with ghoul servants sweeping the dust, I can tell you that.
New Isolde also makes more sense IMO than "trapped celestial that has a paladin's body". Make her a paladin and be done with it. And the sword was a good idea too.

Still, other things are hot garbage, that's not something I will deny. There are some good ideas executed well, some good ideas executed poorly and some bad ideas.

I can agree with that. Of course we could have done better because when we are working on the setting it is with passion, it is not a work and we don't have superiors who impose constraint (of time or other).
My main grip is how it deconstruct 20 years of history, letting a void at what was a good worldbuilding.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

If Port-a-Lucine remains the city that houses this new domain, the similar naming convention might come in handy. Each could be sort of a dark mirror to the other. It might even be some sort of temporal thing? Like, Port-a-Lucine is exactly where (and exactly how) it has been for years ... but when the stars are right ... a party of PC's might find that they entered this other Port-a-Lucine, this living lie of a city. They soon find that it is quite hard to leave. They could learn that the fake/trap city is tied to Saidra and her nonsense ... so maybe the masquerade ball is worth checking out? Something like that.
...
(this idea had been suggested elsewhere; that the city itself may have been copied whole-cloth, furthering the whole 'nothing in this town is as it seems' angle ... but there have been so many VRGtR review threads that I cannot remember which FoS member to attribute it to.)

Yes it was written somewhere else, I think it was inspired by the 3e shadow cities of Falkovnia, but what you wrote is a nice development of that idea.

I like the concept of an astral alliance and maybe some other factor (like passing through a specific pubic arch or something ) transporting people to the fake Port-a-Lucine. Although just by the name it would then be appropriate to use Chateaufaux (fake/wrong castle) but then there wouldn't be the darklords manor in an island.

I am already re-designing a masquerade ball adventure for my campaign, it is a Ravenloft adaptation of Dungeon Magazine #53 adventure Spellbook Masquerade. A one-o-one adventure involving retrieving a missplaced Tome of Lich Creation, which in my campaign belonged to Falkovnian wizard Crimson Arcanus. The same book that a member of the FoS used to become a lich. The adventure takes place in Chateaunoir in southern Dementlieu close to the Mordent border. I also made a card for each masked NPC attending the ball. The plan is to have the PC choosing which costumed figure or group of costumed figures he is talking to, flipping the card/or cards there is a letter or number that corresponds to information that may be given if the character succeeds at the appropriate check (Cha baseed) already written in my DM eyes only info.

[onmyoji]

In just over a week, people here have shown more creativity with new domains than the writers have in, I would hazard a guess at least 6 months of writing.

Curse of Strahd was professional.
This is ... not professional.

Yeah. There's absolutely no reason that Mephisto and I should be able to write a better rationale for Viktra Mordenheim's existence in a matter of minutes without even trying and completely by accident.

There is certainly something to be said for fans knowing and understanding the setting really well. But, ya know, WotC knows that the FoS exists. There was literally nothing stopping anyone at WotC from making an account on this forum and posting here, asking about why there aren't as many female / LGBTQ+ / minority characters in Ravenloft without revealing their identity. Six months ago, that single post could have easily gone on for pages, and that writer would have a literal gold mine of information—both for modules to look into, and also reactions from fans of the setting. Why they (presumably) didn't do that is beyond me. Not that they have to listen to our opinions of course, but that information should be valuable to them one way or another.

Especially since six months ago, a post like "What would you like to see if Ravenloft as a setting came to 5E?" wouldn't have been seen as irregular or suspicious in any way whatsoever. Fans—especially forum newbies—ask that sort of thing all the time.

— onmyoji

[kourkenko]

There is certainly something to be said for fans knowing and understanding the setting really well. But, ya know, WotC knows that the FoS exists. There was literally nothing stopping anyone at WotC from making an account on this forum and posting here, asking about why there aren't as many female / LGBTQ+ / minority characters in Ravenloft without revealing their identity. Six months ago, that single post could have easily gone on for pages, and that writer would have a literal gold mine of information—both for modules to look into, and also reactions from fans of the setting. Why they (presumably) didn't do that is beyond me. Not that they have to listen to our opinions of course, but that information should be valuable to them one way or another.

Especially since six months ago, a post like "What would you like to see if Ravenloft as a setting came to 5E?" wouldn't have been seen as irregular or suspicious in any way whatsoever. Fans—especially forum newbies—ask that sort of thing all the time.

— onmyoji

We already had LGBT characters, for years, i don't remember when Hazlik was described in his history as being gay, it was during the second edition if i'm correct. You can even count Toben the Many as being... everything, all that matter is the body he is inhabiting at the moment. I never cared about their orientation since the background wasn't written around it (a mistake Marvel comics does a lot). As long as the history and the fall-from-grace is good, why anyone should care ?

And i agree, a post on this forum by a newbie would have seen answers and good ones in less than a week. As lot of players here, i'm not against anything as long as it is good for the setting, not for Twitter applause coming from people who don't even play the game. I'm disapointed in this book because the older edition (beside the fourth) were just amasing.
The Domains of Dread in second edition was the first to let players be native (it was big at this time) and Arthaus work expanded the world building and the timeline.

In this book, the best thing is to see an official ravenloft releases beside a rehash of I6. I'm just disapointed in the rushed and poor writing.

[onmyoji]

We already had LGBT characters, for years.

Oh I know. I didn't say there weren't any. Just that there weren't as many minority / female / LGBTQ+ characters as there were presumably straight white men. Of course there were some, but not as many as there probably should be by today's standards.

And I still say that the best way to fix that would've been for WotC to give us 6-12 completely new domains instead of trying to re-work the old ones.

— onmyoji

[kourkenko]

Oh I know. I didn't say there weren't any. Just that there weren't as many minority / female / LGBTQ+ characters as there were presumably straight white men. Of course there were some, but not as many as there probably should be by today's standards.

And I still say that the best way to fix that would've been for WotC to give us 6-12 completely new domains instead of trying to re-work the old ones.

— onmyoji

The lack of women darklords can be simply explained by the fact the setting was inspired by the victorian era and the gothic setting. At this period of time, political and fictonal figures were mostly male (and i say mostly since the most powerful one, Queen Victoria which gave her name to the era, was a woman, alonside writters, scientists etc.). For the minority, their was only one, Urik Von Karkov, who is now dead (i find this ironic preaching for minority integration and at the same time killing the only black darklord...). At least for Asia, they worked on I'cath.

For the LGBT community, they represent 4% of the population today and as i said, as long as the history isn't written around it and is good for the setting, i don't care. If it's throwed in the reader's face, as Marvel comics, i'll keep my money for myself. I buy and use a product to have fun, not being lectured or seeing real world politic thrown in it. Period.
Honestly, i don't see why anyone whould want to be represented among the worst of the worst npcs the d&d setting has to offer but each is own i suppose... As i already wrote, Vlad Drakov was, in his first writting, a mix between Vlad the Impaler and Hitler, a character rotten to the core, now the character became a woman. Do you think it is a victory for representation ? (and this is not an ironic question) Imo the message they wanted (perhaps) to pass is reaaaally blured. Without forgotting the weird part between Strahd and Lyssa...

Finally i agree about the fact they should had written new domains rather than using race and gender swapping, it is just lazy. The book feel rushed and a cash grab. Honestly, i bought Grim Hollow and the setting is now more Ravenloft than Ravenloft itself... Because (and it is what bother me the most) all the worldbuilding that was made just disapeared...
Just my two cents.

[alhoon]

To be fair, while I see some merit to it, I don't like the idea of the "shadow cities". I would prefer a more... Italian renaissance city for Saidra and not a French one.

I wish they have also updated the old Dementlieu too. Give it a vibe with growing resentment and violence towards the aristocracy (that was in the original) and a darklord that was not a criminal or ... (? what was Dominic's goal again? Did he simply lived in the domain taking advantage of it or he actually had plans for it?). Something like, "a few good pro-oligarchy people, a few good pro-republic people and a ton of opportunists in-between." with parts of the domain controlled directly or indirectly by crime-rings that pretend to be funeling money from the evil aristocrats to the "cause" to fund the rebellion (and to some degree they do) and others controlled directly or indirectly by said evil and decadent aristocrats and their will enforced by loyal (or opportunistic that happen to be on their side) lackeys.

[Jester of the FoS]

In just over a week, people here have shown more creativity with new domains than the writers have in, I would hazard a guess at least 6 months of writing.

Drinnik, many of us here, do that for over 20 years. Unless I remember wrong, you're in the 20+ years in the net group too. All the way back from SotK. On top of having dozens of members with decades of DMing and benefiting from talking to each other, we have had various developers of the campaign stopping by, for 2e and 3e.

The book certainly has some odd moments and elements that really suggest is was brutally edited and large chunks were cut and not well developed.

Like Dementliue, which I'm currently re-reading.
Which has these elements in Saidra's backstory:

Code: Select all

But as the clock struck midnight, terror stalked the ball as guests started rapidly sickening and dying. The plague afflicted the duke and Saidra as well. As they lay dying in each other’s arms, the duke gasped a fateful confession

Code: Select all

She stumbled out of the palace, but the plague claimed her on the stairs.

...
What plague?
Those lines are the only ones that suggest a plague. Why did everyone suddenly die at midnight?

It feels like they cut a line that she had to leave by midnight or the grandmother/ hag's bargain would have a horrible price.

There's a similar odd throw-away line in Mordent where Godefroy apparently used the Apparatus to kill everyone in Mordentshire as he became the darklord. Did they stay dead? Was it repopulated? Unknown.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

There is certainly something to be said for fans knowing and understanding the setting really well. But, ya know, WotC knows that the FoS exists. There was literally nothing stopping anyone at WotC from making an account on this forum and posting here, asking about why there aren't as many female / LGBTQ+ / minority characters in Ravenloft without revealing their identity. Six months ago, that single post could have easily gone on for pages, and that writer would have a literal gold mine of information—both for modules to look into, and also reactions from fans of the setting. Why they (presumably) didn't do that is beyond me. Not that they have to listen to our opinions of course, but that information should be valuable to them one way or another.

Somehow, covertly mining the fan forums for ideas doesn't strike me as something that would go over well. It's certainly not "professional."

[onmyoji]

Somehow, covertly mining the fan forums for ideas doesn't strike me as something that would go over well. It's certainly not "professional."

I didn't necessarily mean to completely take ideas posted here and run with them. (Though, to be fair, as someone else recently pointed out, literally everything we write with their IP is technically their property anyway.) My point was more that they could've had someone try to "test the waters" and see what fans were looking forward to if more than Barovia was ported to 5E. They'd have easily obtained a number of generic responses that they could've taken or left behind, but either way, it seems like an easy way to obtain what would've certainly been valuable information some 6+ months ago.

It might not be a professional way of doing so, but it might have helped make it so this book went over better than it seems to have here. I know some liked it or parts of it, but the response seems to be mostly negative here on the forums. I guess my point is that if they cared at all about making a product that better appealed to long-time Ravenloft fans, they certainly know where/how to find us.

— onmyoji

[Mephisto of the FoS]

Honestly, i don't see why anyone whould want to be represented among the worst of the worst npcs the d&d setting has to offer but each is own i suppose... As i already wrote, Vlad Drakov was, in his first writting, a mix between Vlad the Impaler and Hitler, a character rotten to the core, now the character became a woman. Do you think it is a victory for representation ?

I agree, this was one of my first comments when gender swapping appeared as information after the announcment of VRGtR. In a world where throughout history the majority of people have lived under the rule or manipulations of a majority of white male rulers, who were either emperors, slavers, dictators, colonialists, bankers, share holders, CEO's or whatever else, I find it difficult to grasp that not having female, gender fluid or non-white evil rulers (I am not talking about sexuality because throughout the ages it is different and also irrelevant) is seen as underepresentation. I want someone to explain why is it so important to have an equal amount of evil characters of all genders (although, correct me if I am wrong but I didn't hear about any transgender or gender-fluid NPC appearing in the new book, unless if Hazlik finaly managed to take over Eleni's body*). Yes we know that what most people define as evil can be found everywhere in any place of the world , in any social class and gender becuase it is as diverse as people are, but why is it so important to be represented as evil and why is the new book congratulated as being diverse by making people belonging to "all"(?) genders and racial backrounds evil. The only exception now being the Roma based Vistani that are now represented as the exact opposite of what they were represented in CoS. Excuse me but isn't this like a form of reversed-reversed-racism (yes I used the same word twice) thus making it racist in the end? (To clarify reversed racism is also a racist term https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_racism).

*Although I believe Hazlik was being ridiculed for being gay by the other Red Wizards of Thay and not for being trangender. If he was transgender I believe he would proudly wear his feminine tattoos as he should and not feel derisioned by them.

[onmyoji]

Honestly, i don't see why anyone whould want to be represented among the worst of the worst npcs the d&d setting has to offer but each is own i suppose... As i already wrote, Vlad Drakov was, in his first writting, a mix between Vlad the Impaler and Hitler, a character rotten to the core, now the character became a woman. Do you think it is a victory for representation ?

I agree, this was one of my first comments when gender swapping appeared as information after the announcment of VRGtR. In a world where throughout history the majority of people have lived under the rule or manipulations of a majority of white male rulers, who were either emperors, slavers, dictators, colonialists or whatever else, I find it difficult to grasp that not having female, gender fluid or non-white evil rulers (I am not talking about sexuality because throughout the ages it is different and also irrelevant) is seen as underepresentation. I want someone to explain why is it so important to have an equal amount of evil characters of all genders (although, correct me if I am wrong but I didn't hear about any transgender NPC appearing in the new book). Yes we know that what most people define as evil can be found everywhere in any lace of the world , in any social class and gender becuase it is as diverse as people are, but why is it so important to be represented as evil and why is the new book congratulated as being diverse by making people belonging to "all"(?) genders and racial backrounds evil.

How had I never considered this? I completely agree, but gods, my mind is blown. Well stated for sure!

— onmyoji