Redemption and Consequence

[Rock of the Fraternity]

Let's get a big discussion going again.

We all know the Darklords and Darkladies are presented as being as close to irredeemable as makes no difference, trapped in their role as the heart of their dread domain until death frees them.
BUT! That can't be right. Without free will, becoming a Darklord is not the result of a being's own tragic mistakes and crimes, it's just a random cruelty handed down from on high.

Let us assume that a Darklord can choose to try and redeem him- or herself. Let us assume that they do.
Now let's speculate a bit about the three following questions:
* How would the various Darklords and -ladies come to the decision to try and redeem themselves?
* What would they need to do to at try and make up for all of their wrongdoing?
* And what would the consequences be if they started fighting their link to the evil of Ravenloft, their bonds to their domain started to weaken, and various powers within and outside their realm started to notice?

[onmyoji]

Let's get a big discussion going again.

We all know the Darklords and Darkladies are presented as being as close to irredeemable as makes no difference, trapped in their role as the heart of their dread domain until death frees them.
BUT! That can't be right. Without free will, becoming a Darklord is not the result of a being's own tragic mistakes and crimes, it's just a random cruelty handed down from on high.

Let us assume that a Darklord can choose to try and redeem him- or herself. Let us assume that they do.
Now let's speculate a bit about the three following questions:
* How would the various Darklords and -ladies come to the decision to try and redeem themselves?
* What would they need to do to at try and make up for all of their wrongdoing?
* And what would the consequences be if they started fighting their link to the evil of Ravenloft, their bonds to their domain started to weaken, and various powers within and outside their realm started to notice?

This is precisely one of the linchpins of the expanded Curse of Strahd campaign that I plan to run in Pathfinder 2 after this first Ravenloft campaign is done.

Without spoiling too much, suffice it to say that a certain person—who managed to persevere despite having the world against them in many cases—decides that the domains should not be allowed to continue functioning as they do unabatedly. This person takes it upon themselves to literally remove Strahd from the process. And since no kind of permanent death seems to be an option, the only means of doing so would be...... redemption.

Regarding your questions, at least in this case:
* It doesn't begin as Strahd's decision, but it involves the players attempting to get Strahd to see a much greater picture, and his own seemingly eternal existence within it.
* What Strahd does specifically is not really something I can comment on, since at least in some ways, this involves a lot less agency from Strahd and more from the unnamed person mentioned above who begins the process.
* As far as I'm concerned, Strahd fighting his link to Ravenloft and doing so properly (including undoing his bond to the land) could result in Barovia becoming rejoined with the Prime Material Plane. (While there's definitely some leeway for interpretation on this, I operate as if the massacre at Sergei's wedding basically had the effect of copying Prime Material Barovia as a domain of dread, and everyone living in that area were transported there. Any left in the surrounding environs of PM Barovia would still be able to move into PM Barovia and go from there with a fully different history than what happens inside the Core. Hence Kristiana von Zarovich in Roots of Evil.)

Just my two copper, but since I'm slating for it to happen in the future, I'm definitely in a position to hypothesize.

— onmyoji

[Mephisto of the FoS]

Both Knight of the Black Rose and Spectre of the Black Rose imply some kind of test. Also Tales of Ravenloft: Von Kharkov has something similar
Von Kharkov Plot Synopsis: After his master is killed, Urik von Kharkov tries to escape his inner demons as he flees Darkon and his memory returns.

[Mistmaster]

Redemption can happen I plan to use the redeemed Soth as a Light Lord. As the Mistworld is a Prime, nothing happens to the domain but the quality of life of the citizens inproves as the balance shifts and a new Darklord arise. If a Darklord redeem themselves, their replacement will be slowler then if they are killed off.

[tomokaicho]

This is from my post about Strahd's potential redemption.

Not long ago a poster here asked rhetorically something along the lines of "if Strahd just left Tatyana alone and did not bother her, could his curse be lifted?". I think that the answer is yes, but it is more complicated than that.

First Strahd would have to leave her be for her entire life. Not easy for someone that is obsessed. Also, if Strahd does manage to leave her alone, something else will happen that will serve as a trigger. That is the reincarnation of his brother, Sergei. Yet again Tatyana and Sergei will be engaged, and a wedding will be planned. This is another test for Strahd - most likely one that he will fail.

If the wedding goes successfully without the interference of Strahd, and Tatyana and Sergei live long and happy lives together, then what was their original destiny before Strahd got in the way will be fulfilled. In this case Strahd has learned maturity and will probably lose darklordship (but not his vampirism). Who knows what the implications would be for the world of Ravenloft.

Redemption for Strahd is trivially easy - except for the fact that he doesn't want it.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

I would posit that full redemption has to come in two parts:

1) being presented with the same choice that precipitated their fall (or a very similar one) and choosing the right path over the one they originally took.

2) somehow making atonement toward those that they hurt over the years due to their evil acts.

The first is pretty easy to set up (for a DM/Dark Powers, or even enterprising PCs). The second is much more difficult. How do you make up for a lifetime (or several) of evil acts? Sure, Strahd can let one Tatyana go if he could bring himself to do it. But what of all the others driven to madness or an early grave over the years. What of the original one? (And Sergei, and Alek, and all the wedding guests... and Jander ... and every invading party of PCs he's slaughtered... and everyone he's fed from for centuries....) Unless there's time travel involved to undo all that, by redeeming him at the original moment of the fall and creating an alternate timeline, that kind of redemption is an ongoing process (see also Angel the series).

[Rock of the Fraternity]

With the Dark Powers in the position of the Wolf, the Ram and the Hart, trying to ensure that their favourite victim / research subjects don't buck the parameters of whatever it is they're trying to do.

Hmm. Is Ravenloft ready for a thoroughly Evil and well-organised law firm?

[onmyoji]

One of the elements in my case makes things slightly different. Canonically, there have been multiple reincarnations of Tatyana, but how does one reconcile that with Vampire of the Mists, in which Tatyana makes it *out* of Ravenloft, her mind forever marred by the experience.

For me, these are not mutually exclusive. Tatyana does indeed make it out (for if she remained inside, Barovia would become a personal "hell" that she does not deserve), but when Strahd encounters other women, the Dark Powers allow him to ardently believe that he has encountered her reincarnation. This is part of his personal "hell" in Ravenloft. There seems to be no possibility of redemption because Tatyana has literally been completely removed from the equation. She is gone forever (and thus cannot forgive him), and yet the Dark Powers still taunt Strahd with her likeness at every opportunity. Similar to how Azalin is constantly tormented by what appears to be the ghost of his son—who is never actually there. Ultimately, the game is rigged to seem like victory is possible, but it never is. And it is their torment upon which the Dark Powers feed. The wheel must turn.

Part of his redemption in my future campaign depends on the players actually determining that Tatyana isn't a part of Ravenloft anymore and getting Strahd to realize it himself, which he will not do willingly. Thankfully for them, few darklords have journaled as extensively as Strahd, and the past is literally an open book to him once the players help open his eyes to that truth. Either way, I'd posit that adventurers are 100% the only way for darklords to find redemption. The deck is otherwise meticulously stacked against them.

— onmyoji

[Rock of the Fraternity]

Strahd lies a lot in his chronicles, though.
Even to himself...

[onmyoji]

Strahd lies a lot in his chronicles, though.
Even to himself...

Does he though? I know it's generally conceded that "I, Strahd" is written from Strahd's own skewed and false perception of things, but that doesn't actually have to be the case at all, does it?

The way my campaign is setting up, at first it's a largely arbitrary record that Strahd has left on the shelf to accumulate dust for probably centuries. However, after a certain point of the game when Azalin sends them back in time (cf. "From the Shadows"), they have the chance to alter something major, setting the stage for Strahd's full redemption with the Tome as a major guiding force for him. As well as setting the stage for Inajira's eternal and undying hatred.

— onmyoji

[Zilfer]

An interesting thought I had not too long ago was that if Strahd hadn't become a vampire, and wasn't jealous of his brother in that regard Sergei and Tatyana will probably would have died along with Strahd and Barovia would be probably ruled by a Leo Dilisnya whose successful coup would probably not have really brought any sort of better alternative to Barovia. (At least in my head) I always play it to where if the party gets to know Strahd a bit more they can attempt to redeem him if they want though it won't be easy. Nor will he necessarily believe he can be redeemed. As for the not bothering a Tatyana clone for her whole life, I'd say he's having a very easy time of that at the moment if we are looking specifically at Tara Kolyana.

She's what 30+ years already and warned against ever going to Barovia? Default 3e setting of her currently puts that requirement almost half way complete, if those are your requirements for redeeming Strahd.

[Rock of the Fraternity]

Ah, but this is not by Strahd's choice, so he receives no credit.
If I recall correctly, he is desperately seeking Tatyana's latest reincarnation even now.

Now if he were looking for her to beg her forgiveness, or to hand her the Holy Symbol of Ravenkind and a wooden stake, and then recline so she could finish him off...

Hmm. Provided the Core does not fall apart on Strahd's death, who do you think would replace him as Darklord of Barovia?

[Mephisto of the FoS]

Strahd is delusional, from the beginning, he killed his brother thinking that Tatyana would love him instead... full-on delusional sociopath.

Hmm. Provided the Core does not fall apart on Strahd's death, who do you think would replace him as Darklord of Barovia?

Sheriff von Zarovich

(just kidding...)

Jacqueline Montarri

Question: Jacqueline Montarri VS Headless Horseman... who wins?

[DocBeard]

Illustrated Guide to the Core had a really interesting pitch for a Strahd redemption arc, where the latest Tatyana incarnation actually lives until her 40s, and Strahd has to deal with the fact that he's been obsessed with this teenager he doesn't know for almost five hundred years....and now here she is, after a lifetime as a wandering anchorite, as war weary as he was when they first met. If he's ever going to have a moment of realization, that seems like the time.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

Probably he is going to age-shame her.
Strahd...you ancient pr*ck