Conjurers get the short shift in Ravenloft

[tomokaicho]

Conjurers are basically useless in Ravenloft for their primary reason for existence - that is, conjuring creatures.

When a conjurer planar binds or gates in a creature, it is stuck in Ravenloft. Every native conjurer (or spellcaster that can conjure) knows this, and therefore there would logically be very little demand for this specialty. I propose some adjustments.

For summoning: summoning does not summon the real creature, just a template of a real creature. It is given form by magic. The 3E Ravenloft implementation of summoning is a holdover from 2E when summoned creatures were 'real'. My proposal is that the Entities of the Id feat in the RLDMG become the standard way of summoning (without the feat and without the prerequisite). Instead of the creature making a will save (and what DC exactly? The RLDMG doesn't give any guidance), the conjurer should make a Concentration check when the creature is summoned to maintain control. A Concentration check of 10 + the CR of the creature seems reasonable.

For calling (planar binding and gate): Allow the creature called to return to its plane of existence, as long as it completes it task within the time allowed. For example, for an open-ended task the creature may remain for maximum of one day per caster level, after which it returns to its home plane via the same spell that brought it into Ravenloft. If however the creature is prevented from returning for some reason, or it escapes its calling circle (or the conjurer breaks the calling circle deliberately), the creature is then stuck in Ravenloft and it is granted a phylactery. Gate works the same way, but deities and unique beings never come through a gate into Ravenloft.

With these changes, conjurers can now conjure. There is still a lot of risk involved, just not arbitrary risk and no railroading.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

Although I understand the reason to do this on the other hand the danger's of conjuring makes conjurer's sound more dangerous to other's (and themselves). So a conjurer could be seen being the equivalent of a necromancer dabbling with forces not meant for mortal men.

[DocBeard]

Honestly I don't get why the Dark Powers are interested in low end outsiders anyway. Minor devils, demons and angels barely have any of the personality flaws they love messing with. It feels like an old rule to keep too-clever players from escaping by abusing their summons and something you can alter or ditch entirely if you're not doing an escape from Ravenloft game. It's like divination, which was specifically blocked to keep from getting a 'cheat' to understand the Darklord's weakness or where the portal out was. It feels to me, in my dotage, a bit heavy handed.

Now if a summoned creature does something to get the interest of the dark powers, by going against its nature or developing one of those pesky personality things as outsider beings are prone to do, that's a different story. Isolde's a good example of how a spiritual being can get the DP's attention, she specifically cut a bad deal with her superiors because she thought her quarry was worth the risk, and she could handle it anyway; that's the kind of arrogant call that gets the dark powers rubbing their awful little tendrils together.

There are exceptions, of course. Ebonbane and the Sorcerer-Fiend are both examples of monsters the DPs seem to have bound to domains as a defense mechanism, and we know they specifically got a bit greedy with Vecna.

To put it another way I feel like if your PCs are summoning demons and devils then the moral burden should be on them. A non-evil nature or celestial spirit being trapped is only interesting if there's a reason for the trap outside of a gotchya the first time you try to use an otherwise reliable spell in Ravenloft. My rule of thumb is that if a summoned being does something worthy of a powers check, which in this case is specifically acting against its nature for personal gain, the dark powers see it as worth their time and trap it, and anything the summoned being does that is worthy of a powers check is shared by the summoner. An elemental reducing a building to rubble is just following its destructive nature, but its summoner knows what has been unleashed on the world and is morally responsible for the damage.

[tomokaicho]

Although I understand the reason to do this on the other hand the danger's of conjuring makes conjurer's sound more dangerous to other's (and themselves). So a conjurer could be seen being the equivalent of a necromancer dabbling with forces not meant for mortal men.

A necromancer can make use of its undead. A conjurer gets virtually nothing. There is no reason to be a conjurer in Ravenloft under the rules. The Ravenloft conjurer does not get to do conjurer stuff. The necromancer gets to do necromancer stuff.

[nothri]

Using the mist rather than the actual intended plane is possible, although it has subtler dangers.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

Although I understand the reason to do this on the other hand the danger's of conjuring makes conjurer's sound more dangerous to other's (and themselves). So a conjurer could be seen being the equivalent of a necromancer dabbling with forces not meant for mortal men.

A necromancer can make use of its undead. A conjurer gets virtually nothing. There is no reason to be a conjurer in Ravenloft under the rules. The Ravenloft conjurer does not get to do conjurer stuff. The necromancer gets to do necromancer stuff.

My bad I just read the summon monster spell in 3E (hadn't read it since 2nd edition). In 2nd edition you could summon extraplanar creatures in higher levels the equivalent of this spell I had in mind was Animal Summoning I but it was a 4th lvl spell. In 2nd edition it didn't seem far fetched to have these limitations in conjuring as you could do it in higher levels and you could summon more dangerous monsters. There is also Monster Summoning I spell in 2nd edition and this was the effect

Monster Summoning I (2nd Edition)
A group of 2d4 first-level monsters appear 1d4 rounds after the spell is cast, manifesting at the spot the caster designates, and attacking targets that the caster designates until killed or commanded to stop. Summoned monsters may perform other services for the caster if there is no immediate danger.

d100 Roll Summoned Creature (Evil creatures summon the creature in parentheses instead.)
01-10 Manes demon
11-25 Goblin (Dwarf)
26-40 Hobgoblin (Elf)
41-55 Kobold (Halfling)
56-70 Orc (Gnome)
71-00 Giant Rat

I would use the 2nd edition spells instead in my campaign.

[Wolfglide of the Fraternity]

d100 Roll Summoned Creature (Evil creatures summon the creature in parentheses instead.)
01-10 Manes demon
11-25 Goblin (Dwarf)
26-40 Hobgoblin (Elf)
41-55 Kobold (Halfling)
56-70 Orc (Gnome)
71-00 Giant Rat

I am just wondering, as this seems a bit backward to me; wouldn't the evil summoner want the goblins, hobgoblins, kobolds, and orcs?

[Mephisto of the FoS]

d100 Roll Summoned Creature (Evil creatures summon the creature in parentheses instead.)
01-10 Manes demon
11-25 Goblin (Dwarf)
26-40 Hobgoblin (Elf)
41-55 Kobold (Halfling)
56-70 Orc (Gnome)
71-00 Giant Rat

I am just wondering, as this seems a bit backward to me; wouldn't the evil summoner want the goblins, hobgoblins, kobolds, and orcs?

Yes it makes no sense, unless if evil summoners conjure good aligned creatures to see them dying...

Vlad Drakov I - Welcome to the Arena of Lekar Jasper the Corrupt!

Jasper the Corrupt - Ohhh.. I have a surprise for you, your Majesty...

Jasper the Corrupt speaks some words of power and two halflings appear out of thin misty air in the center of the Arena between two displacer beasts from Valachan.

Vlad Drakov I - Run Forest run! Aaa...hahaha!!!

[tomokaicho]

Using the mist rather than the actual intended plane is possible, although it has subtler dangers.

I've been thinking about this. In 3.5e planar bindings can be generic callings. That is, no name is used to call a creature, so a 'typical' specimen answers the call. Alternatively, a name can be used in the planar binding, and that brings forth a specific creature. This could be a possibility for the Ravenloft setting.

1. Calling a generic creature without a name does not have sufficient impetus to breach planar barriers. Instead, the creature that answers comes from the mists. The creatures summoned like this are always generic and don't have class levels.

2. If you name a creature, and the creature really exists on the outer planes, then it will be called. In this case, it gets a phylactery and is trapped in Ravenloft.

3. Gate alway calls real creatures from the planes beyond, even 'generic' creatures, unlike planar binding.

4. You can sell your soul to the mist creatures that look like demons or devils. What they do with the souls is a mystery.

5. A creature called from the mists looks like a demon or devil (or whatever), but doesn't have a reality wrinkle. These counterfeit creatures have alignments as normal, but lack a good or evil alignment subtype. For example, perhaps a 'white conjurer' has called forth a hound archon. Maybe it has lawful good alignment, maybe it doesn't. It doesn't have the good or alignment subtype, so these mist creatures are morally flexible unlike the alignment subtype (fixed alignment) creatures of the outer planes. Perhaps that "lawful good" hound archon that was summoned was lawful neutral or may be lawful evil.

6. A conjurer might get the idea to call one of these counterfeit creatures to fight a real fiend. That would be a mistake, because when the counterfeit creatures enters the reality wrinkle of the real fiend, it suffers an energy drain debuff for as long as it remains inside the reality wrinkle (recovering instantly the moment it leaves).

In this way, we can keep the original material about fiends and phylacteries, and allow conjurers to do their thing - just like they do in other settings. I am feeling pretty creative recently so I might write up something for the next QtR in relation to this.

[Mistmaster]

Creatures of the Id does not allows a conjurer to conjure creatures without problems? Maybe you can give it as a bonys feat to a specialized conjurer wizard?In my Mistworlds the Mists are attracted by summoned outsiders and often try and snatches them, turning them in Mist Otsiders. Mist outsiders lives in various pocket dimensions in the Mists and serves the 9 original gods of the Mistworlds or the imprisoned one, Gwydyon.

[Wolfglide of the Fraternity]

4. You can sell your soul to the mist creatures that look like demons or devils. What they do with the souls is a mystery.

Perhaps they use them to become more real. When first generated, the mist fiends are just a façade that will fade back into the mists when the calling has run its course, but if the summoner bargains with it, it becomes a real creature and continues to exist after being released from service. It is still an extension of the Mists, but it has a personality that it draws from the soul it took.

This is actually making me think a little bit about the Nameless One from A Wizard of Earthsea, where Ged was hounded by a dark part of himself that he gave form.

[tomokaicho]

Perhaps they use them to become more real. When first generated, the mist fiends are just a façade that will fade back into the mists when the calling has run its course, but if the summoner bargains with it, it becomes a real creature and continues to exist after being released from service. It is still an extension of the Mists, but it has a personality that it draws from the soul it took.

As to the souls, you could create a ton of Dread Possibilities out of it, including the one you describe. The more complicated part of this is what these 'fiends' know or do not know about their own existence, and coming up with a rationale for it.

[alhoon]

Well, I would suggest the 5e approach, that you conjure "fey" creatures = mist-born creatures. The Mists show up and when they dissipate constructs of the mists hold out. When they die, they turn to mist.

That said, mist elementals are all the rage. Grave elementals are awesome.

[tomokaicho]

Well, I would suggest the 5e approach, that you conjure "fey" creatures = mist-born creatures. The Mists show up and when they dissipate constructs of the mists hold out. When they die, they turn to mist.

Can you elaborate on that?

[alhoon]

Well, sure.
Say, you want to conjure a Celestial Black Bear. A CR2 creature with three resistances, very low Spell Resistance (6, lol) and smite evil (+3 damage 1/day).

Instead you conjure a "fey" Black Bear. A CR2 creature with some resistances (I would give it +2 to saves vs enchantment and illusion spells, resistance 5 to negative energy and fire), a bit higher spell resistance (HDx2 +2 for 8 ) and +1 hp/HD instead of smite evil.
Once you cast the spell mists raise/move/creep in below the door and when you finish the spell they dissipate leaving behind the creature that is somewhat-but-not-completely unnatural; perhaps it has a face that is a bit-too-human. Perhaps your black bear is gray... with the gray tones slightly changing when you're not looking like dark clouds moving on the sky. Perhaps your black bear looks at you with an understanding you didn't expect from a beast - and a bit judgmentally as it knows what you did last summer. Perhaps your dark bear gravitates to the dagger you killed your brother with.
When it dies, it dissipates to fog that thins out and vanishes, leaving nothing behind.

Stuff like that.