Reaction to WotC announcements re: Vistani (Drow, orcs, etc.

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Reaction to WotC announcements re: Vistani (Drow, orcs, etc.

Post by Mischief »

https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/featur ... ty-and-dnd

Kind of an odd context for the announcement to be sure, but I'll quote the relevant:
Curse of Strahd included a people known as the Vistani and featured the Vistani heroine Ezmerelda. Regrettably, their depiction echoes some stereotypes associated with the Romani people in the real world. To rectify that, we’ve not only made changes to Curse of Strahd, but in two upcoming books, we will also show—working with a Romani consultant—the Vistani in a way that doesn’t rely on reductive tropes.
And to address the article, the Vistani were copied from Dracula which in turn was based on very unflattering depictions of the Slovaks and the Romani - typical for literature of the time but not worth defending or imitating in the modern era. 3.5e did a pretty decent overhaul, but made them more like some sort of noble-savage Jedi. 5e was a step backwards for the Vistani to be honest. The writers should have paid more attention to the 3.5e Ravenloft products. (I wish they paid any attention to the 3.5e products...) I'm planning on doing a Vistani reboot myself to solve the Arturi Ezmerelda contradiction, one tribe's worth, which hopefully will be done in time for October.

As for the rest of it, the divorce between character design and mechanics continues. Pathfinder 2e did a pretty good job with the heritages system. Calling it now, next edition character creation will be picking a starter feat/profession and race traits will be fluff for the most part.
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Re: Wizards announced two more upcoming products with Vistan

Post by Gonzoron of the FoS »

Interesting, to be sure. I'm very curious to see what impact the Romani consultant has. The issue's been talked about to death on this forum and previous ones, but I don't ever recall seeing an actual Romani perspective on it, or at least, none that identified themselves as such. I agree that CoS felt like a step backward in their depiction. Even as far back as 2e, in the VRG, they were depicted as a real culture, with both good and evil members. Not to mention that 4e, they were completely divorced from race and made to be an adoptive culture. CoS seemed to be back to just Strahd's lackeys, plus Ezmerelda as the vistani Drizzt. I'm eager to see how they rectify it.

But hey, bottom line is... MORE TO COLLECT! ;)
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Re: Wizards announced two more upcoming products with Vistan

Post by Mischief »

Gonzoron of the FoS wrote:Interesting, to be sure. I'm very curious to see what impact the Romani consultant has. The issue's been talked about to death on this forum and previous ones
That's what I found the most baffling. If the 5e module authors had checked literally anywhere online that discusses Ravenloft, they would have known about the Vistani landmine. There are still active authors here who [probably] would have been happy to enumerate the elements with negative fan reactions and common "fixes".

I think WOTC's Ravenloft strategy is to wipe the slate clean and do away with old canon minus a few details. If it is rebooted as a setting at all, it will be around modules that sold well in the past. (Which is why it will be interesting to see what the upcoming products with Vistani are). Killing off the Ravenloft canon isn't a popular move with anyone who liked the Ravenloft canon, so they aren't going to be posting their corporate strategy anytime soon - but WOTC's endgame shows in their lack of research.

I wonder if we should make a "landmines not to step on" list for future Ravenloft creators - professional or amateur.
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Re: Wizards announced two more upcoming products with Vistan

Post by Mistmaster »

My future take on Invidia will revolve around Vistani culture.
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Re: Wizards announced two more upcoming products with Vistan

Post by Mischief »

Mistmaster wrote:My future take on Invidia will revolve around Vistani culture.
Then here's some tips on how to avoid cultural insensitivity, not that I think you need it, Mistmaster, but because I feel like talking to the void in hopes future authors won't remake mistakes past. I'll add more as I think of it.

Cultures are heterogeneous. By painting each domain's folk with one brush while those domains are also imitating aspects of a real world culture or country, it can and will be taken as a statement of values. This invites problems, triple so when a folk aspect is perceived as negative like "hot-bloodedness". One of the solutions: draw from multiple sources and be original.

Don't create stock characters. Consider the Hollywood Indian. In the United States alone there are ~600 federally recognized Native American tribes, at least a thousand if you add in the unrecognized ones, and probably thousands more still if you can count the tribes no longer extant. Their cultures, stories, history, and lifestyles still are and were as varied as the stars in the sky. Yet in early Westerns, the "Indian", of whatever tribe the writer thought sounded most exotic, was a savage raiding brute on horseback who scalped settlers and attacked caravans. Screenwriters recognized this depiction was problematic and soon the pendulum swung back the other way. A new stock Indian was born: The wise and noble savage in tune with the land. (Note both's resemblance to the Vistani!) The solution is to leave behind stock characters altogether and create multi-dimensional people, not plot devices, that reflect a living and breathing culture.

Avoid gothic horror's historical pitfalls.
  • Gothic Horror writers often put "exotic" but real cultures and people (or their stereotyped stock character constructs) in the same bin as monsters. Bram Stoker did exactly this with Dracula and his Slovak and Romani minions, and I6 recreated the problem with the Vistani.
  • "Foreign" is often synonymous with horrible and mysterious.
  • Gothic horror often embeds racism and bigotry in its horror tropes. Even if you are creating an original horror, always do a history check to avoid blundering into problematic territory.
Orientalism is a trap. This one deserves its own section because Ravenloft is very invested in capturing a particular feel from an ephemeral and frankly mythical time period. Orientalism is the reduction of non-Western cultures to static undeveloped societies that rational scholars from learned Western great powers can study to reaffirm the Occident's overall superiority. Gothic horror as a historical (and modern) genre is steeped in "Orientalist" philosophy. One of the major chords in the symphony of Gothic fiction tropes is the importation of unfamiliar overseas goods, knowledge, and ideas, Western fascination with them, the changes they wrought on western culture - an age of proto-science and discovery seen through the patriarchal lens of imperialism.
Ravenloft and DnD design in general are very guilty of it. The canon was and still is predominantly written by WASPs and it shows. In Ravenloft, the domains most clearly imitating western European countries are also the most technologically and culturally advanced. Ravenloft's west-coast "Cultured Core" creates the new, the desirable, and the avant-garde in classic Western forms of course, be it opera or oil paintings. Non-occidental domains tend to be tradition-oriented, have statically kept the same practices for X00 years, and have a lower "culture-level". Japan and China-themed settings are given honorary Occident status and a concomitant boost to their technological and cultural levels because they are "cool".

"Fresh" historical inspiration is everywhere if you know where to look. The essential building blocks of gothic horror bloom in periods of rapid change, fear, and upheaval where old and familiar intersects with the new and mysterious. Southern Gothic came into its own in the wake of the American Civil War and Reconstruction period. English Gothic coincides with the period after the Jacobite civil wars. These times in flux are common and universal, but Western historical interests gloss over or are blind to most of them. There is almost certainly some inspiration lurking in your local history.
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Re: Wizards announced two more upcoming products with Vistan

Post by Epically »

I see this as a slippery slope. Ravenloft has always had a heavy set on racism. Outside of Darkon, most areas are heavily distrusting to anything non-human. If they're going to retcon the Vistani there could be further retcons to the rest of the core. Especially considering how popular CoS it wouldn't be out of line to see there might be some more 5e Ravenloft material - case in point the topic of this post.

Is racism a problem? Absolutely. Should it be removed from a fantasy setting? Absolutely not.

I disagree with the way Vistani are portrayed in CoS and have been running my campaign the way they're portrayed in 2e and 3. Are they bad people? Absolutely not. Are they in league with Strahd? No (well some are) they have a mutual understanding of respect. I usually run the Vistani via represented in Disney's Hunchback of Notre Dame's dipiction of the gypsies.
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Re: Wizards announced two more upcoming products with Vistan

Post by Mistmaster »

Me too, Epically.
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Re: Wizards announced two more upcoming products with Vistan

Post by brothersale »

"valuable insights from sensitivity readers "? I did i miss something, is this a late april fools from wizards.
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Re: Wizards announced two more upcoming products with Vistan

Post by ewancummins »

You didn't miss anything.
This is marketing. WizBros wants to appeal to a certain niche. I find the concept of 'sensitivity readers' ludicrous, but then I'm obviously not in the niche WizBros is looking to attract with this stuff.


D&D has had a number of 'gypsy' cultures in various publications.
What's important: Vistani are not real-world Romani people. and Ravenloft is not Earth. D&D is a game. The Vistani aren't really a fantasy version of Romani. Rather, they are a fantasy people inspired by a literary/Black and White Horror movie take on 'gypsies.' The real world connections are present but rather thin.
Other cultures in Ravenloft also have various elements related to real, historical people and places.


I much prefer the more complex 2E take on the Vistani to them being merely evil lackeys of Strahd or being recast as halflings or an 'adoptive culture. ' I like them as exotic (always relative, but exotic to the settled peoples of Ravenloft) human nomads with some possessing special divinatory powers that others in Ravenloft lack. This is a good toolset for the DM. Vistani can be good or evil, friendly or hostile, dishonest tricksters or mystic seers who speak the truth. They have their own culture with variations within it.

I think efforts to render the game 'politically correct' tend to make it boring and un-fun. But of course this is subjective and also a question of degree of change.
The NE gypsies in I 6 are not even called Vistani.
Vistani appear as such in the Black Box. And there they are not an evil/monster race.

I see no reason why Strahd shouldn't have a group of evil gypsies/Vistani working for him. If every Vistani group were evil, they'd be rather boring and a lot less useful as NPCs.
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Re: Wizards announced two more upcoming products with Vistan

Post by ewancummins »

There's some other bizarre stuff in the announcements, though, mostly about drow and orcs. The designers are badly confused if they think these monsters have anything to do with real world ethnic groups or social issues.

But there is more to all this.


Tolkien wrote about the difficulties with an apparently all-evil race in his letters touching on the orcs. Were they really animals controlled by the Dark Lord? Evil spirits clothed in flesh? Free-willed beings capable of good but with a culture that inclined them to choose evil?


D&D has a lot of evil humanoids. Why so many? It's because in Chainmail the bad guys/Chaos faction needed various strengths of troops, and Gygax added goblins, orcs, ogres, etc. In the wargame and the early editions of D&D the mechanical differences between many of these monster types are minor, mostly just a progression of HD/combat power. Need a tougher foe? Use the next step up the humanoid monster ladder.
This approach is great for a wargame or a hack and slash dungeon crawl.
It gives easily identified 'kill or capture on sight' opponents for the good guys. And a player can learn to gauge the threat by identifying the number and type of monsters his party is up against.
let's see, goblins are 1-1 HD and there are twenty of them in this area...

This simple approach breaks down somewhat in 3E with templates and character classes levels added to monsters.

Problems also may arise from naturalism, treating monsters as races of people: If goblins are just little green people who are evil, are goblin babies evil? Are all goblins automatically evil? Irredeemably so? Why? Should we kill them all?

One solution which I've used in a game is to ditch naturalism. Goblins aren't a kind of natural people. They are supernatural/unnatural monsters. They do not have babies. They might coalesce out of the darkness of the Underworld, or possess and warp the bodies of human children, or come into being in some otehr spooky way.
Last edited by ewancummins on Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wizards announced two more upcoming products with Vistan

Post by Mistmaster »

My approach is the Eberron one, every individual has free will (Outsiders excluded) and no culture is intrinsically good or evil. And killing babies no matter the race is always wrong.
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Re: Wizards announced two more upcoming products with Vistan

Post by ewancummins »

Mistmaster wrote:My approach is the Eberron one, every individual has free will (Outsiders excluded) and no culture is intrinsically good or evil. And killing babies no matter the race is always wrong.
That also works.

Although when I ran Eberron I found that the official approach of the setting tended to obviate the need for so many 'monster' races. They felt like legacy inclusions. Why have orcs, goblins, etc. when you could just have different cultures of humans or dwarves?
Delight is to him- a far, far upward, and inward delight- who against the proud gods and commodores of this earth, ever stands forth his own inexorable self.

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Re: Wizards announced two more upcoming products with Vistan

Post by ewancummins »

But Ravenloft generally avoids this stuff. Evil humanoids are not commonplace in most domains.
I like to 'supernaturalize' the ones that are present. Goblins of Tepest would work well as evil fairies or possessed and transmogrified children.

I also like the notion that ogres and other evil humanoids may be humans who failed powers checks.
Delight is to him- a far, far upward, and inward delight- who against the proud gods and commodores of this earth, ever stands forth his own inexorable self.

-from Moby Dick (Hermann Melville)
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Re: Wizards announced two more upcoming products with Vistan

Post by Epically »

I'd hate for this sensitive demographic to find out about Carnival lmao.
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Re: Wizards announced two more upcoming products with Vistan

Post by Drinnik Shoehorn »

ewancummins wrote:There's some other bizarre stuff in the announcements, though, mostly about drow and orcs. The designers are badly confused if they think these monsters have anything to do with real world ethnic groups or social issues.
A psychologist even disproved the "orcs are racist" stance.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog ... ent-racist

Personally, I feel that if you look at orcs and think they are anything other than a fantasy race and that they are representative of any real world culture, you may be racist yourself.
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