Pathfinder in the Mists

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Finally got around to reading the Scattered Lotus stuff. I like it, though I must admit, I don't have enough of a handle on Asian horror to know if it in any way accurately represents it. It's tough to say where mixing together cultural tropes is a good thing versus a bad thing. Is it respectful because it doesn't try (and likely fail) to replicate a particular culture, or is disrespectful to lump in a bunch of different cultures as "generic Asian"? (I suppose the same could be said about the European cultures that are mashed together in the Core, but that's more a replication of what Universal and Hammer did than its own issue.)

Yes, if you want to adventure in actual France and not Dementlieu or Richemulot, there's Gothic Earth. And if you want to adventure in Vietnam or Macao and not a mix of them, same thing. But I do like the way that Kaidan (and much of Dion's Asian Ravenloft work) focuses on one culture per domain, and makes a fictionalized version of Japan, or Thailand, etc, while not actually being Japan, Thailand, etc. But to do that well, you have to be very well-versed or well-researched in each culture you write about. A pastiche is certainly easier. I'm just not sure it's the right choice.

[Mortavius]

Is it respectful because it doesn't try (and likely fail) to replicate a particular culture, or is disrespectful to lump in a bunch of different cultures as "generic Asian"?

Just from my own perspective, why is there even a question of whether it's respectful or not?

I mean, I've been playing D&D for over 20 years. In all that time, I've never had one of my players, or even someone that I knew who played D&D without me, comment on something in this way. Obviously there's some bias inherent in that statement, but it's truthful as it applies to me.

Not trying to discount what you're saying Ron, but are we jumping the gun? Are we worried about what someone else might think, when it's really not a concern?

If someone were to complain to me about the Scattered Lotus not being respectful, I would immediately point to, as you do, the rest of Ravenloft not being respectful to individual cultures either. That may not necessarily make it okay, but it does make it uniform with the rest of the setting.

Once again, not trying to insult or attack what you're saying Ron; I'm just curious about this idea of things being respectful or not, and if you've ever encountered it or know of anyone who has.

[Nemesio]

Finally got around to reading the Scattered Lotus stuff. I like it, though I must admit, I don't have enough of a handle on Asian horror to know if it in any way accurately represents it. It's tough to say where mixing together cultural tropes is a good thing versus a bad thing. Is it respectful because it doesn't try (and likely fail) to replicate a particular culture, or is disrespectful to lump in a bunch of different cultures as "generic Asian"? (I suppose the same could be said about the European cultures that are mashed together in the Core, but that's more a replication of what Universal and Hammer did than its own issue.)

Yes, if you want to adventure in actual France and not Dementlieu or Richemulot, there's Gothic Earth. And if you want to adventure in Vietnam or Macao and not a mix of them, same thing. But I do like the way that Kaidan (and much of Dion's Asian Ravenloft work) focuses on one culture per domain, and makes a fictionalized version of Japan, or Thailand, etc, while not actually being Japan, Thailand, etc. But to do that well, you have to be very well-versed or well-researched in each culture you write about. A pastiche is certainly easier. I'm just not sure it's the right choice.

I agree that the Scattered Lotus stuff it is all fine. It is easy enough for individual GMs to alter the particular details of the cultures in Ravenloft to suit their style or need for political correctness, and voila Ravenloft is the best setting ever! IMHO all that the Ravenloft "setting" has ever really been is a Template for fantasy horror adventures. Basically insert macabre plot here and blame it on the Mists/Dark Powers... I find Clichevenloft charming in its hokeyness though, and I can actually appreciate some of the setting's incompleteness, as it gives us all something to talk about, and I'm glad there are so many fans out there sharing their ideas.

[jules]

with all due respect you could do the natives of the domains, not specific people, just the special rules regarding the natives of specific domains.

[Ryan Naylor]

We need hopping vampires!

A great resource/addition for a quasi japanese eastern horror is the Kaidan setting line which can be inserted into RL quite easily and even if you don't want to insert it whole cloth, the line features a lot of material that you can pillage. (Such as the Haunts books.)

@Ryan: have you checked out any Kaidan products? I'd be interested in your opinion of them. They have an excellent free adventure available: Frozen Wind

We have hopping vampires: jiang-shi and kuei-jin. Both are back in this thread somewhere. I maintain though that neither are sorts of undead you'd actually choose to be to avoid dying.

I've seen Frozen Wind, which I quite liked. I haven't seen anything else yet. I'll have to have another look to refresh myself on any of the details.

[Ryan Naylor]

Finally got around to reading the Scattered Lotus stuff. I like it, though I must admit, I don't have enough of a handle on Asian horror to know if it in any way accurately represents it. It's tough to say where mixing together cultural tropes is a good thing versus a bad thing. Is it respectful because it doesn't try (and likely fail) to replicate a particular culture, or is disrespectful to lump in a bunch of different cultures as "generic Asian"? (I suppose the same could be said about the European cultures that are mashed together in the Core, but that's more a replication of what Universal and Hammer did than its own issue.)

Yes, if you want to adventure in actual France and not Dementlieu or Richemulot, there's Gothic Earth. And if you want to adventure in Vietnam or Macao and not a mix of them, same thing. But I do like the way that Kaidan (and much of Dion's Asian Ravenloft work) focuses on one culture per domain, and makes a fictionalized version of Japan, or Thailand, etc, while not actually being Japan, Thailand, etc. But to do that well, you have to be very well-versed or well-researched in each culture you write about. A pastiche is certainly easier. I'm just not sure it's the right choice.

I hope I've been clear in my reasons for my choices so far, both as part of this discussion and earlier when talking about Tsien Chang.

I'Cath and Rokushima are problematic because, for a long time, they were all there was for Asian cultures in Ravenloft. One had very few opportunities for roleplay and adventure; the other was mentioned once and then never really detailed. I can understand and fully support that the implicit political statement there is that Asia isn't as important to Ravenloft (which can theoretically steal domains from anywhere) as Europe. And that is *obviously* problematic. The tokenism of having I'Cath and Rokushima doesn't help.

Dion (whose work I've already recommended for just this sort of thing) and others, including me, have tried to fix that.

As to whether it is more respectful or less to be authentic or pastiche, that is a matter for individuals to decide, and there is no clear or common answer. If you want authenticity, you have Kaidan or Dion's work (assuming they are actually authentic of course - I'm not going to claim to know for any of the places where I haven't been or know well; for all I know, they could be riddled with problematic stereotypes for the people of those nations, or they could be a searing new representation that cuts to the heart of society X without dumbing anything down). If you want to use Dat Cua Nhen but would rather it were more authentic, play up the Hong Kong and downplay the Vietnamese - although if you do that without building Vietnamese or Singaporean domains, you're still implicitly saying that China and Japan are all that's worthy in Asia for Ravenloft.

As some of the others have said, Ravenloft is quite intentionally a world of pastiche, and most of them (like gothic horror literature itself) have always been more about mood than accuracy. Does anyone believe that Dracula accurately represents Romanian culture in the Victorian era? Or that Vathek is accurately Arabian? Or that Barovia or Lamordia or Falkovnia are faithful representations? Lamordia didn't even get its Swiss highlights until quite late in the piece. Falkovnia is a little bit Medieval German, a bit Nazi German, a bit Russian, and bit generic Europe. Ravenloft (and gothic fiction) has always run on "generic Central Europe" rather than "respectful depictions".

I do think it's interesting that we're concerned about respect and accuracy in Asian domains, but not for any others (including, say, Australian Aboriginals, or native Central and South Americans). I understand why, given the power dynamics and sensitivity to accusations of racism, but it's still interesting. You dismiss it as saying "That's just what Universal did anyway" - how is that an excuse if you're worried about this sort of thing for one group of domains, but not another? I'm willing to bet most people skimmed straight over the idea of a generic Europe in the paragraph above without blinking, but would have been quite taken aback by the same statement about Asia.

I genuinely believe that, regardless of how authentic a domain would be on paper, it's not going to be in a game. GMs will modify (consciously or unconsciously) things to play up the tropes they assume are there, and players will do the same until you end up with pastiche anyway. Even with 3 books to draw on, I would be very surprised if a Kaidan game didn't end up with most people mostly playing characters who are mostly psychologically modern Americans with some window dressing taken from their cultural reservoirs of "Asain tropes" and only a bit of genuine insight. If you have ninjas who wear black facemasks and kabuki costumes, you are a poster for what I'm talking about. And if you took Japan, which is reasonably well known and carries cultural weight, and replaced it with Tibet, or Bhutan, how accurate will that be?

Since you mention respect, I am trying to be respectful in the creation of those domains. I am not, at any point, saying that I have created a general Asian domain based on the general Asian culture. I have created an intentional pastiche, adopting specific aspects from specific cultures to create a new one that is an appropriate background to run fun games in. I did say that a number of places in SE Asia have had similar colonial experiences, but that is not the same as saying "There's no difference between Vietnam and Macau," because that would be stupid and bigoted. That may not be to everyone's tastes, and that's fine. If you'd rather play somewhere that is heavily researched to be accurate, by all means - I have no desire to tell you how to play your game. All I'm trying to do is round out Ravenloft with a few more domains that people might be interested in using in their games.

End of lecture.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Just from my own perspective, why is there even a question of whether it's respectful or not?

Because being respectful is a good thing in general? does there have to be more of a reason than that?

I mean, I've been playing D&D for over 20 years. In all that time, I've never had one of my players, or even someone that I knew who played D&D without me, comment on something in this way.

Among my players, not that I can recall either, but I'm also pretty careful about such things. I know my players and I wouldn't put something in my game that might offend them. (For example: I know very little about Indian culture, but have an Indian-American friend in my game. I doubt I'll ever bring the campaign to Sri Raji for that reason. Too much potential for stereotyping. I don't mind doing a French accent in Dementlieu, or an attrocious Italian accent in Odiare, but I wouldn't dream of doing an "Apu from the Simpsons" accent in Sri Raji. Is it a double-standard? yes. But I stand by it.)

But this isn't my group, this is the internet. There's always someone taking offense to something. But seriously, and without belittling legitimate concerns, in all those years here and on the Goat, and on the old mailing list that you moderated, you don't recall at least few people being upset about how the vistani are a caricature of the Roma, or how I'Cath barely represents Chinese culture at all, or how the Abbers are "mystic movie Injuns," or how Ravenlofts "Africa" (the Wildlands) has no people in it, or how the only black human darklord in the Core is a beast trying to act human, Chainmail Bikinis, "Dark" elves and "Black" magic being evil, the Voodans being too close to real Voodoo, Hazlik being gay or not, etc? Why, Ryan himself recently brought up how it was offensive that The Nightmare Lands poorly borrowed only bits and pieces from Australian Aboriginal culture. And if people are being offended, it's worth looking into why, and how it can be avoided in the future.

Are we worried about what someone else might think, when it's really not a concern?

Within our own games, that's fine. If someone takes offense, you can correct it. But when publishing something for everyone's game, I think a little thought on these lines is worthwhile. Now, this is "only" going into a netbook at this point, but once it's out there, it's out there. ("Only" in quotes because these days, publishing online is comparable to publishing in hardcopy, as far as many are concerned.)

If someone were to complain to me about the Scattered Lotus not being respectful, I would immediately point to, as you do, the rest of Ravenloft not being respectful to individual cultures either. That may not necessarily make it okay, but it does make it uniform with the rest of the setting.

As Ryan points out in his post, historical power dynamics and the direction that racism has pointed historically, and the writers' perspective do make a difference. It should be the same in a perfect world, but for the same reason there's no White History Month, it's not necessarily the same. The vast majority of Ravenloft has been written by men (and a handful of women) of European descent. So when they generalize about cultures close to them, it doesn't come off as offensive, but when they generalize about more distant cultures, it may. And I'm not even saying it does, I'm saying, "it may" because I'm part of that same general culture too and I honestly don't know if someone from a closer culture would take offense. Dion's from the Phillipines, so I'm inclined to take it as a given tha Igid Rabi-I reflects that culture well, and it's not a stretch that nearby cultures in SE Asia are represented far better by him than I could. Similarly, Ryan in Australia certainly has a geographical leg up on me in understanding those nearby cultures. To be honest, all I know about Macao comes from the excellent boardgame of the same name. I'm not even sure where it is exactly.

Once again, not trying to insult or attack what you're saying Ron

Of course, no offense taken. And I'm not trying to insult or attack Ryan either. This is more of a design note than a criticism. It's clear from his long post (which I'll respond to as well, when I have time) that he's put a good deal of thought into this. I did want to open up a bit the debate on tokenism vs. inclusion, not shoot down his Scattered Lotus ideas...

[Zilfer]

To be fair to both sides each side has a point however that being said almost no matter what you publish someone will take offense to almost anything Gonzoron. I mean I've ran a Star wars RP site for about 6 years and there's been plenty of fights for the usual things like god modding accusations, people not liking other person when posts don't reflect the nature. People on the internet or anywhere really take offense to anything. I mean I could say I take offense to the religions of ravenloft for being Poly instead of Mono centered. Why aren't there more Female characters? Good/Evil is too subjective! Ect... ect ect.

Sterotypes are both a boon and a curse. On one hand they are used all the time, and on the other hand some times we don't know when it is prudent to use it. I mean if someone was slurring African Americans in my presence I would take offense. I am probably whiter than all of you in this forum unless your albino XD, and I'll be having my black cousin coming down july to visit me. Point is I'm trying to make is not matter the audience you don't know everything about them and what they could find offensive. It goes along with that you can't please everyone.

On the other hand I do agree that it should be thought of on how offensive it might be, but generally if the DM finds something unsavory he's just going to NOT use it in his campaign like you did. You just admitted you weren't going to use Sri, and that's what other DM's can do as well. For all the complains you get however remember there's over hundred as many people that stayed quiet about it and just 'didn't care' when it came to that subject. I mean I hear white jokes all the time but do I get offended by them? No, do some people yes? Will it stop them from being said if I spoke up? No. xD

Not trying to cause any headaches here but wanted to share my two cents. In case anyone wanted to know I don't have anyone Asian at my table that would be offended so it doesn't apply to me in this situation.

[Mortavius]

You make some really good points Ron. I wasn't considering it from the point of a netbook and the general public.

Personally, I still prefer Ryan's pastiche portrayal, but I realize where you're coming from now with your concerns; thanks for clarifying and not taking offence.

[Rogold Gildenman]

I agree that both sides have a fair point, but must admit that I enjoy mixing and matching influences far too much to stop creating an affectionate pastiche of multiple cultures to suit my purpose, as well as catch the interest of readers.

Provided I'm not deliberately seeking to cause offence, slander or libel a culture in the process; it should also be understood that I am more than willing to alter my version of things if someone can improve upon it, which is a reasonably fair attitude (or so I would say at least).

[The Giamarga]

Ba’al Verzi Assassin

Requirements: Skills: Intimidate 5 ranks, Perception 5 ranks, Stealth 5 ranks; Feats: Alertness, Two-Weapon Fighting; Special: The character must undergo a vile initiation ceremony to prove his worth to the brotherhood, culminating in an assignment to murder someone and take part of their skin to bind their dagger

Knife Fighting: At 1st level, a Ba’al Verzi assassin deals damage with a dagger as though the weapon were one size larger than it actually is. At 4th level, she gains Weapon specialisation (dagger) as a bonus feat. At 5th level, she gains Greater Weapon Focus (dagger) as a bonus feat. At 7th level, she gains Greater Weapon Specialization (dagger) as a bonus feat.

Shouldn't weapon focus dagger be either a requirement or an early class feature, or does a verzi assassin get weapon spec, greater weapon focus , etc. without actually having weapon focus?

The TWF requirement seems especially odd, I'd simply replace it by weapon focus dagger.

Are you aware of the Knife Master rogue archetype?

Why the slower sneak attack progression? Why did you drop Death Attack?

Also why model the prestige class with powers granted from the relatively new vampire masters? I'd rather have a baseline verzi class, that even the assassins of old could have pursued. A mundane assassin, favouring the dagger and intimidation/duplicity instead of magic, quasi-vampiric powers or poison.

I do like the Resurrection Sense btw. Much better that the official and mysteriously powered death attack abilities that paizo gave them.

For the weapon bond I'd still prefer the paladin/antipaladin weapon bond with a preset selection of properties that can be granted to the weapon. I'm thinking of keen (though it could perhaps be a baseline required option as all baal verzi knives seem to have this), phasing (as in the 3.5 item from Gaz1 or maybe drop it), vicious (for the LotB Dilisnya artifact dagger), maybe some more like wounding, human bane, cruel or even kinslayer.

Magical bond: A Ba'al Verzi assassin may choose one of two magical bonds: the black path, or the red path.

The name Magical Bond for this ability still feels strange to me. With what does a baal verzi pursuing the black path bond? It should be described. For wizards it is with a familiar or an item, in the paladin ability it's a divine spirit or divine horse.

[The Giamarga]

Ah now I get it.The Baal Verzi prc is adapted from the Red Mantis Assassin prc. That makes sense. I'd still drop the TWF requirement and replace it with weapon focus dagger. Alertness does also not really fit IMHO. I'm torn on wether intimidation fits for a verzi. Their reputation is intimidating but they did focus much more on infiltration i.e. bluff or disguise.

I think overall the class abilities - for example creeping doom - are still too much mantis and not enough baal verzi/vampire-like. Perhaps a bigger diversion for the Red Mantis class is in order. Perhaps borrowing an ability from Master Spy or making up something new.

[Ivoshandor]

Gonna agree with Giamarga on this one. I would change Requirements to bluff 5 instead of intimidate 5, change alertness to Deceitful and two weapon fighting to weapon focus (dagger) IMHO.

[Nemesio]

Or you guys could change it in your respective campaigns. The guy has done a lion's share of the work for you already.

[Ivoshandor]

Which is certainly what i will be doing in mine. It gives them the better feel and seems to fit better with the know martial on them. (I, Strahd). And yes amazing work Ryan has done for both the Ravenloft community and Pathfinder.

Question though: would the feats Iron will and Improved Iron will apply to Fear/Horror/Madness saves?

And is it scary to say I remember playing I6 when it first came out.