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DocBeard
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Post by DocBeard »

The God-Brain's biggest desire is to know what it means to be alive, to walk and talk and breathe and eat and have a body to directly experience things through (as stated in RLDMG, which I and apparently everyone else missed, but which Mangrum explained here on the boards, eliciting a "Huh, that makes sense" from most people and eliciting a bitter flamewar from a poster named GodBrain, but that's neither here nor there).
Did he or she, like, read Thoughts Of Darkness? The whole reason the God-Brain lets the High Master Illithid live is because having an enemy of that caliber constantly plotting against him is the closest he can regularly get to feeling alive. Sure, having your own personal Starscream isn't the full, living experience, but it keeps existance interesting.

Nice speculating, by the way! The war thing confuses me a bit, too; I mean, the most obvious bit to involve Malocchio getting freed from his curse to be trapped within his borders, which would give him a drastic advantage when it came to waging war on other Domains, ultimately giving a subtler, more patient Drakov the chance he needs to finally try and sieze a win...

(I could be wrong, but I think it's pretty clear that's where they were going with Drakov's experimenting with new ways to spread influence, especially since he'd become a sort of mentor for at least two major political figures who wanted to bring a more centralized government into their homelands. Furthermore, it fits with Drakov's curse; even though he's "won" through Maloccio and Othmar spreading his style of leadership and strife throughout the Core, he's still not the conquering hero-king uniting the continent and earing the respect of his bloody warrior peers: even said fellow bloody warriors aren't /peers/, so ultimately their respect will be so much ash in his mouth. Plus, who expects Drakov to actually learn from his mistakes? It'd be a great, "Oh snap!" sort of twist.)

...but the way they described it, the war-which would be dangerously close to Strahd's territory, and right after the big guy led the first really successful military action against another Core domain that anyone can remember-was almost a side effect, a sort of happy accadent, which is just strange coming from a master-planning sort of villain like Azalin.
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Post by Mangrum »

Since the cat's out of the bag anyway, I'll clarify -- the bracer doesn't "download memories" -- that sounds a bit sci-fi, don't you think? It operates as a variation on a lich's phylactery, with a touch of magic jar, which is how Azalin was able to create it. Upon the wearer's death, it transfers the wearer's soul into a waiting receptacle back in Avernus. That soul is then placed in an inactive clone body. Without that soul, an awakened clone would just be an evil duplicate, as detailed in the core RL rules.
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Post by Rock of the Fraternity »

... So, it'd be identical to S, except for not having her actual memories and soul? I mean, S is evil.
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Post by Ornum »

So, a question. Assuming that they were aware of what was about to happen, would darklords (at least, those that are able) be able to close their borders to prevent the soul's return after the body dies?
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Post by Rock of the Fraternity »

Interesting question. I'd say if a domain border can stop an incorporeal undead, it could probably hold back a soul under the effects of a magic jar spell or similar. The ones that can't, probably can't.
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Post by Matthew L. Martin »

Rock wrote:... o_o Wow. That's some kick-ass speculation, there! Incidentally, if memory serves, the current GodBrain is moved by the personality of a human psion, who voluntarily gave the Illithids his brain so he could harness their power when the old GodBrain was dying. So there's already a human brain in there, which supports your hypothesis.
No, that's only a fan article, and the trend of the Kargatane during their tenure on 3E was to avoid defining the God-Brain.

But Azalin would probably have found himself irked by this move of S's, since he wouldn't be able to get her back to fulfill his real plans for her.

Of course, even without that, he's still got to figure out how to get the Thirteenth and the Greatest out of where they're being kept or trapped, and to deal with someone else who's keeping an eye on his targets. He may be able to make alliance with one of the Demiplane's major players to help handle that last, though . . .

:twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
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Post by Archedius »

An alliance with Gwydion perhaps? Both seek freedom (but I do see Gwydion crushing Azalin out of spite). I could see him working with the God-Brain, if he could actually communicate with it without interference from the Illithid themselves. I can't think of who else Azalin might work with and I just don't see him directly approaching our favorite Dukkar.
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Post by DocBeard »

I've gotta say, I dig working with the God-Brain a lot more than ol'squidlips for filling the "Super smart cthonic entity" nich, probably because ultimately the God-Brain is a little more relatable-it has a goal that isn't "CONQUER THE STARS WITH MY LEGION OF CORRUPT FAIRIES OOGILY BOOGILY!"

But that doesn't nessicarily mean it's what they had planned.
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Post by Lucius »

Matthew L. Martin wrote: But Azalin would probably have found himself irked by this move of S's, since he wouldn't be able to get her back to fulfill his real plans for her.

Of course, even without that, he's still got to figure out how to get the Thirteenth and the Greatest out of where they're being kept or trapped, and to deal with someone else who's keeping an eye on his targets. He may be able to make alliance with one of the Demiplane's major players to help handle that last, though . . .

:twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
:shock: :shock: :shock:

From where came this info??

This sounds very interesting!!

Someone care to expand this info ?? :roll:
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Post by Lord Cyclohexane »

Mangrum wrote:Since the cat's out of the bag anyway, I'll clarify -- the bracer doesn't "download memories" -- that sounds a bit sci-fi, don't you think? It operates as a variation on a lich's phylactery, with a touch of magic jar, which is how Azalin was able to create it. Upon the wearer's death, it transfers the wearer's soul into a waiting receptacle back in Avernus. That soul is then placed in an inactive clone body. Without that soul, an awakened clone would just be an evil duplicate, as detailed in the core RL rules.
Very, very cool. Any plans on having used that on other people? After all, I've always wondered how Balitor escaped the Requiem, seeing as he should have been in his manor in Desolatus (or, if Lord of the Necropolis is considered canon, I wonder how he was freed from within Death, which he was changed into along with Lowellyn Dachine), to be an active NPC in Death Undaunted...

And sorry about the "download memories" thing... I was just idly describing it, not considering the genre in my description. But yeah, I should have figured that it worked like a phylactery rather than a memory-recorder, since S is an Azalin-clone and so there should be similarities between her and Azalin...
Rock wrote:... So, it'd be identical to S, except for not having her actual memories and soul? I mean, S is evil.
I don't recall the RL rules modifications for clone and am away from my books, but his description sounds more like the 2nd Ed clone spell. As per 2E, the S-clone would only have the memories of the time when the cells were harvested (clone requires a few cells from the original person as a material component) and would recognize itself as a copy of the original, having a need to kill and replace the original if the original is still alive. Hence, the "evil duplicate" as it seeks to kill the original.

Anyway, with the magic jar / phylactery effect of placing S's original soul into the S-clone body, it would have ALL of S's memories right up to the point of death and would have S's soul, thus not being a duplicate at all but just the original in a replacement body. And S wouldn't feel the need to kill the original S, as she IS the original S; there's no duplicate formed in this process.

That said, under 3E, all of these things are taken for granted. If the original lives, clone produces an empty husk that withers and dies if not preserved. Upon the death of the original body, the soul would immediately be drawn to and would start inhabiting the clone body, if there was one already prepared and preserved. No evil duplicate would be produced.

I'm assuming the RL modification just brings the 2E horror into the 3E version. But again, as my books are at home and I keep forgetting to have the PDF on my flash drive, this is not necessarily correct thinking.
Rock wrote:
Ornum wrote:So, a question. Assuming that they were aware of what was about to happen, would darklords (at least, those that are able) be able to close their borders to prevent the soul's return after the body dies?
Interesting question. I'd say if a domain border can stop an incorporeal undead, it could probably hold back a soul under the effects of a magic jar spell or similar. The ones that can't, probably can't.
Since Mangrum stated that the bracers are based off of a lich's phylactery (with only slight modifications as per magic jar), and since a lich's essence is not blocked by closed domain borders from returning to its phylactery, I would say that S's soul similarly flows back to the clone chamber in Castle Avernus regardless of any closed domain borders inbetween.

That said, if you were running a campaign with S in it, I'd likely change that rule, making it so that S's soul is just transfered into the bracers and that someone has to take the bracers from the corpse and hoof it back to Darkon the long way. Then, once back in Darkon, the bracers could be attached to the clone tank to transfer the soul out of the bracers and into the waiting clone body. This way, it'd give a few interesting adventures as the PCs bring the bracers back to Darkon, not to mention having had a full Mists-spanning campaign as the PCs are sent to watch over S...
Matthew L. Martin wrote:But Azalin would probably have found himself irked by this move of S's, since he wouldn't be able to get her back to fulfill his real plans for her.
As clarification, I'd meant it as being Azalin's plan, not S's plan for suicide. Azalin could always clone a new S, place her soul into the clone, and have her back at his side. The God-Brain would just get the dead brain out of the most recent S body, thus getting access to S's knowledge but not her soul or anything.

That said, it was just speculation, not a terribly well thought-out idea. After all, I don't really know enough about Illithid God-Brains to know what they can do that others can't do (Azalin, after all, also has SuperGenius intelligence and the ability to read minds; what can the God-Brain do that Azalin cannot do himself? Could the gestalt brain constructed of multiple illithid brains allow a better ability to analyze information from multiple perspectives simultaneously?), so I don't really know what would be a good deal there.

Also, mind you, it's only been revealed that the last Gazetteer entry would be set in Bluetspur. I'm merely making the assumption that the God-Brain would be of interest; it could be that the vampire illithid are of greater interest somehow. It could be that Lyssa von Zarovich is back in Bluetspur and Azalin intends S to run into her. It could be that, since the God-Brain's attention will draw psions into Bluetspur physically (see the alternate Powers Checks rules for psionics) that Azalin hopes to make use of that to duplicate himself in Bluetspur and have a certain freedom from Darkon itself. It could be that, since the God-Brain can read minds and communicate with anyone anywhere across the Land of Mists, that Azalin plans an agreement with the God-Brain to create a much better communication system with his Kargat and expand operations outside Darkon. Or, from that same ability, that Azalin plans to have the God-Brain open communications between himself and Gwydion, as Gwydion has no ambassadors to communicate through.

It's just speculation.
Matthew L. Martin wrote:Of course, even without that, he's still got to figure out how to get the Thirteenth and the Greatest out of where they're being kept or trapped, and to deal with someone else who's keeping an eye on his targets. He may be able to make alliance with one of the Demiplane's major players to help handle that last, though . . . :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
Hmmm, and the God-Brain would definitely have the ability to watch those Children of the Gentleman Caller, considering its ability to watch anything throughout the whole of the Land of Mists... But again, mere speculation on my part.

BUT, my question: What generated the "the Thirteenth and the Greatest" comment? I've seen nothing to suggest that the Children have been increasing in power/prestige across the Gazetteers, although admittedly the one from Gaz I (Beast of the Hills) wasn't even important enough to get her sidebar... And thinking about it, I guess that it's kinda true, as power-wise Vigo Drakov < Jongleur < Malocchio and it's still unknown who the one from Gaz V is...

Interesting.

(EDIT: Last entry based on me misreading things... But "the Thirteenth and the Greatest out of where they're being kept or trapped" indicates those are two different entities... and also meaning Malocchio is not the only trapped GC Child...? And I'm assuming that "someone else who's keeping an eye on [Azalin's] targets" refers to Isolde, though I doubt she's the only person who's watching them... I wish you could reveal what you know, especially as you're not bound by contracts...

Random follow-up idea: What happens when Isolde, an actual angel, runs across the Darklord of Pharazia, who wishes to be one? What would he attempt to do to her? Could the GC trek through there specifically to give Diambel that chance? Would Diambel try to destroy Isolde and use portions of her body to upgrade his own?)
Last edited by Lord Cyclohexane on Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Lord Cyclohexane »

Odd notion that only just occurred to me (yeah, yeah, I'm slow): Are the Children of the Gentleman Caller working together?

I'd been wondering again about the War of the Western Core, then I realized that the Jongleur happens to be in Borca, which would be the first invaded... And Vigo Drakov is in Falkovnia, immediately to the north, and Malocchio is in Invidia, immediately to the south...

And Malocchio has access to a large number of Falkovnian troops (I always wondered about this, why Vlad Drakov would ally with Malocchio... could Vigo be the reason?) so that Falkovnian troops would be attacking Borca from both North and South...

I started to realize, what if it's the Jongleur who manipulates Ivan Dilisnya to attack Malocchio's troops (the ones who keep crossing the Borcan border to hunt Vistani, which is pissing off Ivan), thus giving Malocchio the needed excuse for going to war in Borca?

And then, through the mutual protection treaty, Falkovnia joins in the war, so Borca gets attacked by Invidia and Falkovnia simultaneously?

And then Dementlieu, Mordent, and Richemulot join in on Borca's side, due to their own mutual protection pact under the Treaty of Four Towers...

And so the entire Western Core is ablaze, all as a huge plan of the Gentleman Caller's, as implemented through his Children?

And, as the spark that sets everything off... Azalin sets off the War, unintentionally, by sending S out on the Gazetteer quest to begin with... The Jongleur noticing that he's been noticed (who else would have informed the Gentleman Caller about S, so that the GC would confront her in Gaz V) is the spark that sets off the War...

Again, all speculation, but this time I think I've got something closer to the mark.
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Post by Ornum »

Lord Cyclohexane wrote:
That said, under 3E, all of these things are taken for granted. If the original lives, clone produces an empty husk that withers and dies if not preserved. Upon the death of the original body, the soul would immediately be drawn to and would start inhabiting the clone body, if there was one already prepared and preserved. No evil duplicate would be produced.
On a side note, this is why I don't use the 3e version of Clone, as it's actually closer to the 2e Stasis Clone spell used by Manshoon and presented in the Ruins of Zhentil Keep boxed set. I prefer the possibility of an evil clone running around. Even if I never end up using it, I still like the option.
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Post by HuManBing »

To speak up in a mild defense of the "downloaded memories" idea, sci-fi though it may very well be, there are two sources to justify such a use in the game. Note that this is not intended as a challenge to Mr. Mangrum's opinion on S's bracer, which we should rightly view as authoritative on this matter. It's merely a rationale by which other situations may use a similar mechanic.

One is the "Torc of Craftsmanship" from Van Richten's Guide to the Lich (page 92) which functions as I've described above. It copies the nonweapon proficiencies (2nd ed. rules) of the wearer and when the wearer dies, the torc then transfers them to whatever next wears the ring, usually the lich who created it. The Guide to the Lich describes this as a ring that fits on your finger, but it could very easily be a bracer instead. (And in the heroic tradition of Beowulf, the words "ring" and "armband" were more or less interchangeable anyway.)

Another source is the novel "King of the Dead", where Firan Zal'honan repeatedly sifts through the memories of other people and literally steals their skills, memories, and even memorized spells for his own use. Once he becomes Azalin and enters Ravenloft it appears his curse stops him from doing this with spells, but it's possible he could still do this with mundane memories. (And in 3rd ed. it's specifically written in the rules that he can do this thanks to a salient ability.)

There is not a specific spell in DnD rules that I know of that exactly replicates this, but a handful of spells comes close. If I recall correctly, they are: Detect Thoughts (PHB Sor/Wiz2), Probe Thoughts (SComp Sor/Wiz6), Crystalline Memories (CMage Sor/Wiz2), and Mindrape (BoVD Sor/Wiz9). Spell Meld (BoEF Sor/Wiz9) also allows spell sharing.

So, no need to apologize for coming up with the idea. Even if it doesn't apply in this particular case, it certainly opens up a new field of PC/NPC interaction, especially for the more scientific types, a la Mordenheim or Markov!
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Post by Gonzoron of the FoS »

I thought Chezna was confirmed as the Gaz V GC child?

While I like the idea of the Jongleur being involved in crushing Borca, I doubt the Beast or Chezna cares, and Chezna certainly isn't more important than big M.
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Post by Lord Cyclohexane »

gonzoron wrote:I thought Chezna was confirmed as the Gaz V GC child?
I could not say on that point; I can only say that I've not seen it confirmed (though it seems to be the consensus choice of the board as a whole) and that it's not made it to the Fraternity's FAQ, in any case. If it has been confirmed then I apologize for my lack of knowledge in that regard.
gonzoron wrote:While I like the idea of the Jongleur being involved in crushing Borca, I doubt the Beast or Chezna cares, and Chezna certainly isn't more important than big M.
My apologies, while my idea was that the Children would be creating the War, I hadn't meant that all of the Children were participating in this one singular plot; many would be doing other things.

Not to mention, I doubt that all of the Gentleman Caller's Children are working for all of him, and would be willing to bet that some of them have rebelled against "daddy," but that overall the vast majority have no idea who their Father is. I would assume that most of the GC's Children were seeded in different locales for future plans of the GC's but have not been "activated" (ala sleeper agents).

Hell, I'm not even sure that Malocchio knows of the Gentleman Caller, but I certainly don't recall him knowing of it in The Evil Eye or any of the Gazetteers. But we do know that Malocchio has been to Falkovnia in the past (as he drags Gabrielle there), where Vigo is, and Vigo could have "felt" the presence of someone oddly like himself... And started a good family connection, finding the Jongleur as well on his hunt to track down Malocchio.

Overall, I have no idea how Malocchio, Vigo and the Jongleur would have met or started collaboration, but I imagine it can't be coincidence that three of the GC's Children are where the action is...

But yeah, on the Beast of the Hills, I doubt she's doing anything for the Gentleman Caller, as it seems like she's just brooding over her lack of a life. She might be a usable pawn for the GC later on, but I doubt she'll ever be doing anything on her own initiative. And as for Chezna, I doubt she'd be related to any plots in the Western Core at all, but might be used for some kind of plot in Nova Vaasa or in the Nocturnal Sea (Nova Vaasa is building naval power, after all).
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