Expedition to Castle Ravenloft (cover)

[Jakob]

I understand Strahd was redone in Dragon magazine as some sort of near demi-god with a HUGE CR. Oh, and they left out his entire background. We all know background material is a waste of space, when more PRCs , feats, and stat block

You mean the dragon article that presented the update of the original stats and a slightly increased class one (CR 18 IIRC) with full pages of strategy and method combines with maps of the castle.
You know, compared to the Gaz I where he's CR 21 and his history is omitted.

There's a slight difference, you know?

In that magazine, Strahd is made a KILLER MACHINE. He is the wet dream of the powerplayer. It seems he was BORN as a vampire, since EVERY FEAT HE HAS is made to maximize the damage he can do with his vampiric powers...

I actually saw no need for the Gazetteer I to tell again the hystory of Strahd...

[Tobias Blackburn]

There's a slight difference, you know?

In that magazine, Strahd is made a KILLER MACHINE. He is the wet dream of the powerplayer. It seems he was BORN as a vampire, since EVERY FEAT HE HAS is made to maximize the damage he can do with his vampiric powers...

I actually saw no need for the Gazetteer I to tell again the hystory of Strahd...

Gazetteer Strahd was designed for use in a Ravenloft campaign setting where he doesn't necessarily have to ever see the PC's and has other stuff to do.

Dragon Strahd was designed to allow a 3e conversion of one of the more Iconic villians in DnD and let people play with him again in the spirit of the original I6 adventure.

It's almost as if the Dragon Strahd was built to be a one off villian based off of a classic adventure instead of the uber-vampire set up for the campaign.

And after trying both against my players I can assure you, CR 21 Strahd beats the pants of CR 18 Strahd, feat optimization and all.

[Ronia Sun]

Though I plan to (eventually) use Strahd as an NPC, I don't know that I'll ever deliberately set out to pit my players against him in an out and out fight. While it might be fun (I'm sorry. You are all dead.) I think I'd prefer my players' continued acknowledgement of my existence... CR 21 is just...scary.

[Nathan of the FoS]

I'm just a little confused. My GazI and SotDR say Strahd is CR 24--has a later formula for determing CR been put into play? Or is my Strahd just tougher than yours?

[Jester of the FoS]

It's a case of "all my books are in the basement and I'm on the second floor, do I really want to go down two flights of stairs to check three CR". I guessed, I was wrong. And I think CR24 proves my point.

Dragon and D&D in general may favour high-level baddies but the actually 3E stats in the campaign world are faaaar higher. We can get all elitist and think "we play Ravenloft, we're better than them because they're all about combat and stats when we want story and history" but the original adventure, the one Dragon tried to replicate with uber-Strahd, was a player meatgrinder where the DM tried to use every dirty trick imaginable to off the players.

Keep in mind, this new book is for players of level 6-10. No matter how many encounters are in this book there's no way the party is going up to epic levels. So Strahd can be no more than CR 13-15 at MOST, and even then we're assuming four or five levels have been gained.

Bashing WotC and the core game for actual slights is one thing, bashing them out of bias and spite is another.

[Ronia Sun]

I think WotC is as entitled as any DM to change the stats of their villains according to the desired result.

(My bad on the CR, too. Mine is a case of "too lazy to look it up on my pdf file" )

Unless you *like* having your players burn you in effigy, it's not a bad idea to lower Strahd's CR if you plan to actually have them face him in combat...

[Rotipher of the FoS]

Even in his 1E incarnation, Strahd was always described to DMs as a hit-and-run tactician, not a sledgehammer. (He's tough enough to fight as the latter, but when you've got regeneration and at-will gaseous form at your disposal, why not play it smart...? ) I'd be very much shocked if PCs are honestly intended to fight Strahd to a standstill; more likely, it'll end in the classic "Stake-The-Bugger-Before-Sunset" race against time, when it comes down to the finale.

That doesn't mean that PCs won't have to face Strahd at all; that would be an atrocious waste of one of D&D's most vivid and memorable classic NPCs. But I'd expect the darklord to toy with them on the first night -- depleting their resources with ease and scaring the crap out of the players -- and then trap them somewhere in his castle for the day, forcing them to escape and dungeon-crawl their way to his coffin before dusk falls and Strahd comes after them for keeps.

Heck, if it's done right, it could well provide an object-lesson for the current crop of new DMs: villains who use all their resources -- not just their hack-and-slash skills -- are the most dangerous; and NPCs that your players get to know -- and to feel strongly for or against -- are the most legendary. The original I6 module did much the same, for the 1E generation; perhaps, if we're lucky, the designers of "Expedition" will try to recapture that aspect of the old classic, not just the way-cool maps and egregious body-count.

[HuManBing]

Not to threadjack too much, but was there ever any further update on the supposed adventure series for Azalin's restoration as Darkon's king?

[Alanik Ray]

Not to threadjack too much, but was there ever any further update on the supposed adventure series for Azalin's restoration as Darkon's king?

Nope. We're still waiting.

[Jester of the FoS]

It's gone for good.

[ewancummins]

I was only poking fun at 3E 's tendency to powergame. That was all written in a spirit of silliness. Not trying to be too harsh. Heck, I play 3E! I just make fun of WOTC's occasional excesses, in a good-natured way.

[Ronia Sun]

No worries. I don't think anyone is upset. I, too, find WotC's continued support of the munchkin community amusing...and I thank heaven that I don't game with such folks.

[Mortavius]

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with making a strong character and playing to your strengths. That doesn't mean you don't have weaknesses in other areas. Got a Barbarian with a 20 Str? He probably has a 6 Cha. It's up to the DM to make sure that penalty comes into play, not the player.

And I'm not making ANY judgements on this book until I see it in print. I'm happy that WotC is releasing it. While I don't think it forcludes a return to the campaign setting or anything, it does open the door. WotC is out to make money, and if selling Ravenloft will make money, then they will do that. And who can blame them? They're just trying to make a living.

[Joël of the FoS]

I'm also looking foreward to this adventure. It might bring new people to the setting. We'll see when it is out, but I'm sure they won't try to retrofit it in Eberron

Joël

[Charney]

I have two things to say. First of all I'm starting to get a little tired of WoTC bashing. They aren't all bad, first of all, it wasn't until that munchkinesque third edition that they finaly added narrative descriptions for spells and monsters. If they were so bad, those extra lines would have been used to have hundred of feats!

Now to the topic at hand. I'm glad they are republishing Strahd's adventure. And yes Strahd looks funny on the cover but now is a good time not to judge a book by its cover isn't it?

Just the fact they've kept the name Ireena is proof that they seem to keep true to the original I6.