A more realistic Fear/Horror/Madness system

[crazybantha]

With one single fail a victim can develop schizophrenia, multiple personalities and suicide thoughts?

Granted, the check is only triggered by deep (insert curse here). But in real life it takes years for someone to develop these things.

I'm not saying the system is flawed. I just want more verissimilitude. For that reason, part of my new campaign project will be to changed it (a lot, I'm guessing).

I wouldn't want heroes to go mad when witnessing a terrible thing, I want it to be a slow process, for them to be scared from witnessing twisted and horrific stuff repeatedly, so in time they develop their own unique traumas that could or could not act as psycopathologies.

Is there an alternate system around, where I can draw inspiration from? Also, ideas and comments are welcome.

[Sorti]

Maybe every time you fail an horror check you get "horror points" equal to the difference between the DC and your result, and when you have a certain amount you begin to have minor effects, then moderate, then major, or something like that... and with time and/or therapy you can lower your horror score...

same with Madness, eventually unifying the two checks...

just an idea

[DeadReborn]

Maybe every time you fail an horror check you get "horror points" equal to the difference between the DC and your result, and when you have a certain amount you begin to have minor effects, then moderate, then major, or something like that... and with time and/or therapy you can lower your horror score...

That sounds doable.

[Sassey]

Ohhh I like that. I'm gonna use that in my home campaign.

/cheers!

-Dave

[Jester of the FoS]

I did some 4e stuff that could be used in 3e (or even 2) with little conversion (check out the stickied thread on this forum).

There's also the alternate sanity system used in d20 Call of Cthulu and found in the SRD:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/sanity.htm

[DeepShadow of FoS]

Rucht and I were working years ago on a guide to madness of sorts, one of the many abortive projects laying aorund in my hard drive. I'll see what I can dig up.

[Gnarfflinger]

Perhaps a Sanity point system, akin to Hit points, where you start with your Wisdom score and add so much based on class, then so much per level. Whenever you need to make a madness check (likely an attack against your will defense), you take so much damage, but it only regenerates at ONE point per successful extended rest. This means that if the Nightmare Court wants to play with you, you don't regain Sanity points...

Eventually, you will be at certain points such as 3/4, half, 1/4 or even 0 sanity. Each stage represents a more severe result, and getting above a certain point represents the disorder no longer affecting the character.

This begs a few interesting questions: Would warlocks have higher or lower constant value because of their pacts? How about Clerics? Does their faith help or hurt them? And How about the intellect of wizards and warlords? Or the simple brutality of the Fighter or Barbarian?

It's not perfect, but maybe a start?

[order99]

Warhammer FRPG has a nice little Insanity Point system you might want to take a look at. The one in V1 is pretty comprehensive, but V2 has more flavor...

[Stygian Inquirer]

You could also use a variant of the taint system (either Oriental Adventures or the Heroes of Horror version). I believe the Heroes of Horror version allows for tainted characters to develop mental instabilities.

[Shadow]

As someone who has an interest in psychology, I have always had somewhat of a problem with most RPG madness systems. Mainly - they all assume that one can develop pyschological disorders such as multiple personalities and schizophrenia from fear and horror alone.

In psychology and psychiatry, serious pyschological disorders such as schizophrenia are seen primarily as a biological illness. While psychological trauma can certain scar a person, he is more likely to develop anxiety disorders (including Post Traumatic Stress) or, possibly. depersonalization than the steriotypical "quacking like a duck lunatic".

I suppose that a lot of the rpg insanity systems go back to the pulp and Victorian novels that spawned them. However, I still think that there is a lot of room for improvement in the treatment of sanity in rpgs.

[Brandi]

I suppose that a lot of the rpg insanity systems go back to the pulp and Victorian novels that spawned them. However, I still think that there is a lot of room for improvement in the treatment of sanity in rpgs.

Considering the first insanity system was designed for Call of Cthulhu, I'm inclined to agree.

[Jack of Tears]

In psychology and psychiatry, serious pyschological disorders such as schizophrenia are seen primarily as a biological illness.

Actually, this has long been a debate between the different branches - and even different people within the same branch. While there does seem to be some indication that schizophrenia can be passed genetically, this is not a reliable test; people with no family history can still contract it, while those who do possess maddness in their line may never suffer from it at all. And then there is the question that, even if we see a tendency toward schizophrenia in a blood line, is it do to heridity, or is it a learned condition picked up from one's early home life?

On the same level, people react to stressers differently and what will be a minor upset for one, may produce long term problems for another. There are almost no absolutes in psychology and every case is different because every person is different. (though there are thearapudic models which demenstrate some effectiveness in treating certain conditions - a good psychologist will dabble in many different forms and fit the treatment to the patient.)

As for the argument against sudden onset - post traumatic stress can result from a single event and result in suicidal or abnormal behavior. Nine-eleven is a great example; many of those who where close to the event (emotionally and/or physically) suffered some degree of PTSD.

That all said, I'm all for a more gradual shift - even if the end result is rolled from a list and the actual time of onset it stretched over many sessions.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

Even if there's a biological basis for a given mental illness, it's often a stressful situation that makes that that illness begin to express itself. If an incident triggers Madness, you can always argue that the illness had been latent in the afflicted character, up until that point.

IME, making madness in a game too realistic is a bad move. Some topics -- rape, child abuse, mental illness -- can cause real distress in players who've dealt with these things IRL, in themselves or their loved ones. And even discounting that possibility, truly realistic insanity in PCs seldom makes for a good role-playing experience.

There are times when total realism isn't desirable, and this may be one of those times.

[DeepShadow of FoS]

And then there is the question that, even if we see a tendency toward schizophrenia in a blood line, is it do to heridity, or is it a learned condition picked up from one's early home life?

Twin adoption studies reveal that about 40% of schizophrenia is environmental, which is more than low enough to classify it as a genetic disorder, especially when victims without a genetic history comprise less than 5% of cases.

Sorry, psych major just had to chime in on that count.

Still, the environmental component of the condition justifies what others have said, that the condition can be latent until activated. Of course, it doesn't become full-blown schizophrenia all at once, but usually progresses from delusions and hallucinations...to something that is completely different from what is described in the book...

[Shadow]

IME, making madness in a game too realistic is a bad move. Some topics -- rape, child abuse, mental illness -- can cause real distress in players who've dealt with these things IRL, in themselves or their loved ones. And even discounting that possibility, truly realistic insanity in PCs seldom makes for a good role-playing experience.

Yes...I wouldn't expect a system where you a an "extremely realistic" system of mental illness (if such a thing was truly possible). Yet, I think that many rpg systems entirely trivialize or even unknowingly mock mental illness. Organizations like NAMI (http://www.nami.org/) work to make sure that mental illness is not stigmatized in the public.

Fortunately, Ravenloft's system is not really bad (other than some of the poorly written rules). However, I've seen games where mental illness is treated as kind of a joke ("I failed my sanity roll, so now I have to quack like a duck for the rest of the session").