Ultimate Ravenloft: Should we?

[Rotipher of the FoS]

Wish I had time to help, but I'm buried in projects already. I would make one suggestion, though: if you're doing a Wiki for this, you should give it a title other than "Ultimate Ravenloft". "Ultimate" makes it sound like it's meant to be the ultimate reference-source for canon Ravenloft information, not something compiled and adapted by fans.

I realize that it's actually a comic-book reference, but not everyone who might one day google "Ravenloft" looking for information will make that connection. Better to be clear that this is a modified version (Ravenloft 2.0? Ravenloft Re-Animated?) from the start.

[The Arcanist]

Not my intention to burn anyone on any stake but I do disagree with several of these points.

I think some things need to be "reevaulated" pretty heavily. I think domain borders and closing of them needs to reconsidered (though I know many people feel that way)

I've said previously that IMHO I like the borders, even if i agree some are lame, but isnt that what this is about? reimagining the lame into something good?

Besides they are a storytelling tool for a DM, really if a bad DM wants to railroad you is the domain border his only option?

So some darklords shouldnt be able to close their borders? Sure! if it fits with their curse, for example, Drakov.

Impworks mentioned in the design goal thread that we could post domain closure as optional for each DM. That's fine by me too.

I also think some of the qoute "Darklords" need to be demoted to NPCs that are empowered by the dark powers.

I think that Ravenloft is about gothic horror blended with sword and sorcery fantasy and I don't think anyone can argue that, by that point the darklords should be threatening to PCs, if not by themselves then through some level of martial control and minions.

I agree with Gothic vs. sword and sorcery, but as I see it, the thing about darklords for me is not to have bosses for the PC's (although several are already really though and menacing), but NPC's who'll give the flavor to each land trough their stories and curses.

What's better? to have the PC's fight head on with Ivana? or to have them thank their benevolent sponsor for all her help in their "completely not related to her interests" quest? She should still have body guards, after all her cousin is still trying to kill her, for starters.

In my humble opinion Darklord should refer to lords of the domain that rule (overtly or covertly) but actual rulers, and those rulers should have some justification for being in charge besides just "she's the darklord" there should be a more realistic angle and at the same degree a greater degree of power and challenge for the PC (which being the actual ruler can provider).

I also am of the opinion that Ravenloft itself, not the individual domain should be the prison. By making darklords rulers of the their own domain you give them motivation to not travel much, but you don't restrict them, just adding to the horror.

This also seems wrong, i just cant picture Adam ruling Lamordia, some darklords will not care about ruling their land, what would stop them from leaving? and having the darklord tied to the land seems cool, he knows it's his own little personal hell, made in just the right way to torture him.

Even for those who do care about ruling... what would stop Strahd or Azalin to just walk (or being the powerful wizards they are, teleport) to Borca and take out Ivana for her resources? what would stop them from finally burying the hatchet along with the corpse of the other somewhere?

Finally if you make the darklords the default ruler of their domains it will be real easy for the PC's to know who they are. Many work better from behind the scenes, for example d'Honaire.

For that team, I would postulate the Arcanist and impworks (If they agree)

Sure, I'm in! I'll also rename the wiki and give you all the link once it is done, what does everyone think of "Ravenloft Reanimation"?

[Baduin9]

I will repost my two earlier post:

"
So, if you want to create a New World of Ravenloft, or Ravenloft post-Time of Ultimate Darkness, I have a few suggestions:

1. Time, Distance, and secrets: My solution is simple. Never say outright what the distances between towns are, how many people dwell in town etc. That is more realistic, in any case - when you go to some town, do you SEE how many people live there? You can see that a town is small, or big, that it is surrounded by wall with wilderness outside, or has widespread suburbs etc. Descriptive sizes, as in DMG - thorp, hamlet to metropolis are okay, but there is no need to use numbers with them. Large City can have 20 thousand dwellers, but also 5 thousands or 100 thousands - there is no need to specify it. Don't say how many soldiers is in the army - it is a secret, anyway.

Similarly with the history - as few dates as possible, and no distinguishing between false and true history. You can say what people say - who needs more?

As for secrets: do it as the Dying Earth RPG does. They don't have GM books. Instead, every monster has three different descriptions and statblocks - and stats are often relative to average attributes of PCs. Similarly with secrets - books gives popular superstitions and contradictory divagations of scholars. GM decides which one, if any, is true.

2. Domains - as for me, Darklords should be still bound to their domains, BUT domain borders shouldn't be stable. Darklords could and should battle to move domain borders. That way, they are still in prison, but can enlarge their cells - at the expanse of their neighbours. The way to do it would be two - by armed conquest, and by persuading people.


You don't need to persuade people to want to be part of your domain. If people are believing in religion popular in your domain, using your language, possess your Cultural level, follow your traditions, the border will change accordingly.

And the other way round - Darklords set the Cultural level and Magic level of their domain (at least in the center, near the borders there can be influence from the neighbouring domain), prevalent traditions and modes of behaviour of people, etc. - even weather, to an extent.

3. There should be no closing domain borders. Darklords certainly could make it DIFFICULT to enter or leave their domain - by changing weather, misdirecting travellers etc.

4. Darklords have usually a lair, or castle, or other centre of power - usually a Sinkhole of Evil. I would call it Demesne (or similar). As we have enlarged domains, this place could use some of the former domain abilities. Specifically, Darklord could close the borders of his demesne - but only if he is inside. To leave it, he has to open the borders.

That way, you can have politics, war, trade, etc. But, you can also close adventurers in with a Darklords in his castle, or inside the village of Barovia.

5. Many of the published adventures are about killing darkords. On the other hand, according to the official "history" most of the darklords were not killed. So - are the darklors to be killed, or not?

My suggestion - I would create a lesser class of villains, in contrast to Lords they could be called Vassals. They should be bound to domain, similarly to the Lord, should possess Demesnes, and certain powers over the nearby land (although subject to Lords.) They could close their Demesnes - although in this case it is possible, although difficult, to escape despite closure, and Darklord can forced their Demesne open. They should be similar in some respect to the Darklord - mostly vampires in Barovia, wizards or undead in Darkon.

In that way you can have difficult enemies to kill without great political upheaval.

6. With several Vassals in the domain, you don't have to decide who is the darklord. In most famous domains, like Barovia, it is obvious, but in others you can present several options for the GM.

If a Darlord of the Core is slain, his domain never disappears. It is either taken over by a Vassal, or divided between neighbours.

7. It should be made clear that Darklords are immortal, and don't die of age until slain.

8. Dwarves and Elves - if there is to be a greater prominence of demihumans, they should return to their folkloric roots. There is no need for elves and dwarves in cities, where they differ from humans only with their ears or height. Dwarves should live underground, either in mines or in mountains, and elves in their own faery realms, either hidden in forest, in invisible castles, or in the strange magical "planes" accessible by sidhe mounds, or as magical isles hidden in the sea. A good source for this are Norse legends and book of Poul Anderson - "Broken Sword" and "Three Hearts and Three Lions"."



"I would say that the if the whole word is made of mists, which are an Ethereal substance, then they are governed by emotions. So called "pathetic fallacy" is the most basic rule of physics of New Ravenloft.

I would posit some additional rules - an elaboration of "ethereal resonance".

First - "ethereal attraction"

Things with high etheric charge and embodying similar emotions are attracted, proportionally to their power. Darklords are the greatest concentrations of Ethereal energy (and emotion) and so are attracted very strongly to the area of NewRavenloft embodying the same emotion.

Second "ethereal resonance"

Ethereal resonance is usually thought of as happening in the unbound ether in the Near Ethereal. As the whole Ravenloft is made of solidified ether (the substance of Ethereal logically should be called ether, I think), it is also subject to resonance. To be specific, each domain is in resonance to its Darklord. It responds in a certain way to his moods and to his wishes. Conversely, Darklord can feel important things which happen in his domain, and most of all the appearance of other powers.


Focal points

Resonance happens most strongly in certain focal points. The darklord lairs can be assume to be such points. When the darklord move far from his lair, his resonance with his domain, and consequently his power weakens.

Darklord is similarly in resonance with the population of his domain. This resonance, however, is not automatic. It does not depend on any allegiance of people, but on the similarity of their mind-patterns with the preferred mode of thinking of the darklord. Eg people of Barovia are in resonance with Strahd as long as they are uneducated, afraid and superstitious. Should that change, he would lose his control on them.

Darklords and domains

Darklords usually are not imprisoned in their domains (the exception would be if they needed the powers given by their domain to live). On the other hand, they cannot enter the domain of any other darklord. Since whole NewRavenloft is divided into the domains, the result is very similar.

The domain borders are movable. The most direct way to move border would require the darklord to stand on the border and try to walk into the adjacent domain. By expenditure of a considerable amount of energy, he could very slowly change the resonance of the land from the former darklord to himself. On the other hand, he would be very weakened - being effectively outside of his domain he would lack his powers, and by the effort of pushing the border would weaken him ever further. The other darklord would feel a physical attack on himself, and would be certain to counterattack, in person or by proxies, probably killing the aggressor.

Another way of moving the boundary would be to convert the other's subjects to his own way of thinking. Should the population along the border become wholly converted, the border will move to reflect the mode of thinking of the people. Again, this does not depend on any allegiance, but on the similarity of world-views.

False history

The NewRavenloft is effectively a complete world, more or less continuously populated. The areas without any darklord are also populated, but uncivilised - villages in dense forests, nomads on the steppe, etc. The geography tends to be fluid, tribes etc have no contact with the rest of the world. On the other hand, monsters, halfmen like orcs etc can appear out of the mist. There are also imports from other worlds. There can appear copies of people dying in other world (usually with altered memory)- "etheric resonance" again.

When a new darklord appears, he shapes both the land and the people to his way of thinking. There can appear new and old buildings, even some terrain features can change. People can acquire a new language, and always acquire a new civilisation. Instead of isolated villages there appears a nation, with traditions etc. It can be sometimes rather abrupt. When it happens near other domains, the change is much more gradual - there are slow changes in fashion, technological regress or progress, ruins can be discovered during an archeologic excavations - more like in Borges "Tlon, Ukbar, Orbis Tertius". Since the darklords is attracted towards most similar area anyway, the changes shouldn't be too radical."

[Baduin9]

And one additional point:

Closing Domain Borders makes trans-domain politics nearly impossible. You can invent ways to attack a darklord - a surprise invasion, a small group of assassins - but they are only half-measures. Nothing stops a darklord afraid of an attack from closing the border and keeping it closed.

On the other hand, the ability to stop PCs - and perhaps some important NPCs - from leaving a domain plays quite important role in the creation of horror, so it should certainly remain.

The solution? Ditch closing the border, and introduce in its place an ability of a darklord to stop specific people from leaving his domain. He must know well the people in question - he cannot simply keep everybody in. "New arrivals" to Ravenloft are especially easy to be affected in that manner.

The precise way in which the character is prevented from passing the border should be specific for each darklord. Present rules about closing the border would work in the pinch. I would prefer something more subtle - like the characters getting lost in the forest and returning to the place they started from etc.

Most importantly, the darklord cannot keep anybody out. Or, rather, he cannot hermetically close his border against arriving people, but he can defend it against invasion. That defence would be much more weaker than the current closing of the border, and would usually be represented by extremely bad luck plaguing invaders (bad weather, lightining strikes, plague etc). The story of Falkovnian invasion into Borca is a good example how this could be done.

This is, of course, the basic consequence of darklord's power over his domain. On the other hand, each invasion, especially when supported personally by the opposing darkord from his border, tends to weaken darklord's hold over his domain. The border can move, leaving some areas in the power of the invading darklord. There the invaders would benefit from "home advantage".

So, invasions would be dangerous and risky, but certainly possible.

[Desertrising]

I really like the idea of making the darklords domain closing power more tied to individuals versus everyone. I think this is a great way to keep the story telling aspect in tact while allowing the setting to breath a bit more. I also think there is a lot of room for crafting each darklords way of closing the border.

Some ideas:

Strahd - I still think his mists should stay. They have been always will be.

Azalin - Memory fugue. The person attempting to depart forgets why they are leaving and where they are going. (this might be what he does already though )

Gabrielle - Extremely seductive paramours show up enticing the characters to stay.

My mind seems to have left me all the sudden, but I will give it some thought. Hell if everyone likes the idea, I might turn it into my own little project to help the overall project...

[Le Noir Faineant]

My version of "Ultimate Ravenloft" can be seen in my *Ravenloft Origins* game, chat logs available here at the Café de Nuit.

[WolfKook]

My version of "Ultimate Ravenloft" can be seen in my *Ravenloft Origins* game, chat logs available here at the Café de Nuit.

Could you specify a little, Rafael? At least by giving a global description of what you have changed, to put it on a common ground.

Nice ideas, Baduin. I guess I'll make an effort to compile all the great ideas that have been said here and post them on the Wiki.

[Le Noir Faineant]

I fear I cannot give many things away without spoiling a lot.

Basically, the action retells the orignal Ravenloft story, set in the Forgotten Realms.

The basic idea is that neither Sergej nor Tatyana died in the blood wedding, and are now hunted by Strahd's minions.

As a tie-in to the Staunton Bluffs game, it is strongly hinted that Tatyana is Ezra, and that she was the essence that held the land of Mists together, no dark powers.

Minor characters have shown up already, most prominently Jander Sunstar, Alek Gwyllym (I, Strahd), Gondegal and a teenage Harkon Lukas (riding on a direwolf he names Casimir).

Right now, the plot darkens, with the heroes dealing with Jander's terrible legacy...

Cormyr will tremble...

[The Arcanist]

1. Time, Distance, and secrets: My solution is simple. Never say outright what the distances between towns are, how many people dwell in town etc. That is more realistic, in any case - when you go to some town, do you SEE how many people live there? You can see that a town is small, or big, that it is surrounded by wall with wilderness outside, or has widespread suburbs etc. Descriptive sizes, as in DMG - thorp, hamlet to metropolis are okay, but there is no need to use numbers with them. Large City can have 20 thousand dwellers, but also 5 thousands or 100 thousands - there is no need to specify it. Don't say how many soldiers is in the army - it is a secret, anyway.

Similarly with the history - as few dates as possible, and no distinguishing between false and true history. You can say what people say - who needs more?

Completely agree here, if we spend our time drawing up complex production and population scenarios there'll be little time left to create NPC's, backdrops, adventures and such.

This is still a game right?

As for secrets: do it as the Dying Earth RPG does. They don't have GM books. Instead, every monster has three different descriptions and statblocks - and stats are often relative to average attributes of PCs. Similarly with secrets - books gives popular superstitions and contradictory divagations of scholars. GM decides which one, if any, is true.

Also, it's easy enough, with books such as VR guides where you can find additional abilities, origins and versions for monsters you could always keep your players guessing.

2. Domains - as for me, Darklords should be still bound to their domains, BUT domain borders shouldn't be stable. Darklords could and should battle to move domain borders. That way, they are still in prison, but can enlarge their cells - at the expanse of their neighbours. The way to do it would be two - by armed conquest, and by persuading people.


You don't need to persuade people to want to be part of your domain. If people are believing in religion popular in your domain, using your language, possess your Cultural level, follow your traditions, the border will change accordingly.

This sounds to much like planescape for my tastes. Being that domains are prisons, I dont think darklords should be able to change the size of their "cells" on their own. Now if the neighboring domain loses its darklord, a new darklord may be chosen or the domain may be divided amongst its neighbors, like gundarak did.

And the other way round - Darklords set the Cultural level and Magic level of their domain (at least in the center, near the borders there can be influence from the neighbouring domain), prevalent traditions and modes of behaviour of people, etc. - even weather, to an extent.

As long as the darklord doesnt set these cultural and magic levels consciously I agree; darklords are powerful and all, but at the end of the day they are cursed and being punished for their sins. The cultural and magic level should fit the darklord or their curse.

3. There should be no closing domain borders. Darklords certainly could make it DIFFICULT to enter or leave their domain - by changing weather, misdirecting travellers etc.

4. Darklords have usually a lair, or castle, or other centre of power - usually a Sinkhole of Evil. I would call it Demesne (or similar). As we have enlarged domains, this place could use some of the former domain abilities. Specifically, Darklord could close the borders of his demesne - but only if he is inside. To leave it, he has to open the borders.

That way, you can have politics, war, trade, etc. But, you can also close adventurers in with a Darklords in his castle, or inside the village of Barovia.

They could have both abilities as I mentioned to Wolfcook on a previous post, border closing is a storytelling device. Also, no real reason for a darklord to have his domain closed at all times, and honestly, the DM plays the darklord, if you want to prevent abuse of this on your table, just dont abuse it. I'll get back to borders further on. And you can still have politics and such as they already exist in published products, for example, the four towers.

5. Many of the published adventures are about killing darkords. On the other hand, according to the official "history" most of the darklords were not killed. So - are the darklors to be killed, or not?

My suggestion - I would create a lesser class of villains, in contrast to Lords they could be called Vassals. They should be bound to domain, similarly to the Lord, should possess Demesnes, and certain powers over the nearby land (although subject to Lords.) They could close their Demesnes - although in this case it is possible, although difficult, to escape despite closure, and Darklord can forced their Demesne open. They should be similar in some respect to the Darklord - mostly vampires in Barovia, wizards or undead in Darkon.

In that way you can have difficult enemies to kill without great political upheaval.

6. With several Vassals in the domain, you don't have to decide who is the darklord. In most famous domains, like Barovia, it is obvious, but in others you can present several options for the GM.

If a Darlord of the Core is slain, his domain never disappears. It is either taken over by a Vassal, or divided between neighbours.

7. It should be made clear that Darklords are immortal, and don't die of age until slain.

A whole different subject now, darklords should be played carefully by a DM, to kill or not to kill a darklord should be his decision on his table. But in order to have a continuity in "Ravenloft Reanimated" they should be kept alive if only to keep them available for the DM's who wish to use them.

As for the vassals idea, if you are trying to have a buffer between your PC's swords and your darlord, just have a villian or henchman there to be the buffer, no need to tie someone else to the darklord's land, that should be their own.

Having vassals as possible options of who could the darklord be also seem unnecessary, being how the very existence of darklords is unknown to most already and the identities of them even more so. If your player's characters learn that darklords exist, then they can start making their own guesses, how would you know that gipsy girl in Invidia is the darklord? or that famous and well loved minstrel in Kartakass? or the alter ego of some nova vassan noble(if you even know Tristan has an alter ego)? or correctly pinpoint anyone else?

Finally, regarding darklord's deaths, as with every darklord it should be according to their curse, for example Ivana's death could very well eventually be at the hands of a protégé as her mother's death was, and that doesnt even mean she can not keep being a darklord as a ghost or such.

8. Dwarves and Elves - if there is to be a greater prominence of demihumans, they should return to their folkloric roots. There is no need for elves and dwarves in cities, where they differ from humans only with their ears or height. Dwarves should live underground, either in mines or in mountains, and elves in their own faery realms, either hidden in forest, in invisible castles, or in the strange magical "planes" accessible by sidhe mounds, or as magical isles hidden in the sea. A good source for this are Norse legends and book of Poul Anderson - "Broken Sword" and "Three Hearts and Three Lions"."

Agree here as well, but not many changes are needed though, elves are already recluded to Sithicus and a single part of Darkon as are Dwarves to their city in Tempe Falls IIRC, cant even remember a place where you can find gnomes, while halflings are supposed to be generally accepted they are still common in Darkon only.

"pathetic fallacy"

I'll check that closely when I have a bit more time and comment then

Closing Domain Borders makes trans-domain politics nearly impossible. You can invent ways to attack a darklord - a surprise invasion, a small group of assassins - but they are only half-measures. Nothing stops a darklord afraid of an attack from closing the border and keeping it closed.

On the other hand, the ability to stop PCs - and perhaps some important NPCs - from leaving a domain plays quite important role in the creation of horror, so it should certainly remain.

There are several problems from here on, for starters, borders close to keep people in, not out. With of course the exception of Azalin and perhaps a few other's whose borders might prove a problem tryin to cross them from either side... Adam's storms come to mind.

The solution? Ditch closing the border, and introduce in its place an ability of a darklord to stop specific people from leaving his domain. He must know well the people in question - he cannot simply keep everybody in. "New arrivals" to Ravenloft are especially easy to be affected in that manner.

So how come "new arrivals" are well known to the darklord for him to trap them?

The precise way in which the character is prevented from closing the border should be specific for each darklord. Present rules about closing the border would work in the pinch. I would prefer something more subtle - like the characters getting lost in the forest and returning to the place they started from etc.

Each darklord already closes its border in its own way, some could be more subtle i agree, but some dont need changes.

Most importantly, the darklord cannot keep anybody out. Or, rather, he cannot hermetically close his border against arriving people, but he can defend it against invasion. That defence would be much more weaker than the current closing of the border, and would usually be represented by extremely bad luck plaguing invaders (bad weather, lightining strikes, plague etc). The story of Falkovnian invasion into Borca is a good example how this could be done.

They already cant, exceptions mentioned before.

This is, of course, the basic consequence of darklord's power over his domain. On the other hand, each invasion, especially when supported personally of the opposing darkord from his border, tends to weaken darklord's hold over his domain. The border can move, leaving some areas in the power of the invading darklord. There the invaders would benefit from "home advantage".

So, invasions would be dangerous and risky, but certainly possible.

Invasions already are possible, and darklords could try expanding their domains, but really it seems Drakov is the only one who has not noticed they wont be able to do so, and the only one who is interested in doing so. Only the dark powers should have this kind of control over the demiplane.

[ewancummins]

In case anyone is interested:

http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/foru ... php?t=5513

That's a link to some of the notes from my current PBP campaign, Mists over the Musarde. It diverges from canon in a number of ways. I'll be periodically adding to it. Secrets won't be posted there, unless the PCs actually uncover them in play.

[Lucien Doomdark]

Okay, I'm new...*ducks*..and didn't see an introductions thread (and perhaps didn't look )

Mind you, I came late to the party...I started collecting the 3.5 stuff and I enjoyed it, but I always saw it as a bit too 'full'. Now, I get that people have fond memories of certain domains and there's no reason why we can't create a toolbox reboot with a load of options (I think a Wiki would be a great idea, perhaps with a few mods and editors).

Anyway, I always felt that each domain had an archetype and represented a single horror trope...not exactly but there are definitely similarities...

For example, Strahd is FFCBS's Dracula; he's a great warrior who falls in love and does something dark and appalling because of it. Mordenheim is perhaps the most obviously inspired by the literary Frankenstein; cursing his own creation as the root of his failings, while, Malken/Tristan are Jekyll/Hyde transposed to a medieval setting. Denial is a key part of being a Darklord (I mean Sir Godfrey is barely aware of any domains outside Mordent).

Anyway, rather than get bogged down in semantics. Set an editorial mandate and vision for the reboot. What are we attempting to achieve?

Oh, and if we do something, then I'd definitely want to help/meddle...

[WolfKook]

Anyway, I always felt that each domain had an archetype and represented a single horror trope...not exactly but there are definitely similarities...

Of course, they do. Indeed, although my first idea was to use the current domains, center on their darklord, and then expand from there, lately I'm beginning to think that perhaps we should list those horror archetypes, and create a land and a darklord consistent with each one (Reusing those which already fill such stereotype, there's no point in reinventing the wheel, at least not completely).

Anyway, rather than get bogged down in semantics. Set an editorial mandate and vision for the reboot. What are we attempting to achieve?

In the discussion about the project goals (In the community projects forum), we stablished the following set of objectives. They're further explained in that thread:

1. Keep the Setting's Original Staples
2. Increase Attractiveness and Playability
3. Strive for Consistency
4. Keep a Unified Timeline
5. Include Fan-Created Material

The project is right now somehow in pause, as the Arcanist creates the Wiki and we wait for the RL article in late October. If we decide that it still leaves place for a project like this, we would be getting our hands dirty right away!

You're more than welcome to help/meddle, Lucien. Please let me be the first to say welcome to this forum. It's good to see the Fraternity expanding. Soon we would be able to take over the world!

[WolfKook]

Well, I'm getting married tomorrow, and will be on my honeymoon next week, so I guess I'll miss the so anticipated publication of the RL article by WotC. However, I guess the original question of this thread ("Should we?") would be more valid than ever once it gets published. I hope this thread will grow a little once that happens.

See you in a couple of weeks.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

Well, I'm getting married tomorrow, and will be on my honeymoon next week, so I guess I'll miss the so anticipated publication of the RL article by WotC. However, I guess the original question of this thread ("Should we?") would be more valid than ever once it gets published. I hope this thread will grow a little once that happens.

See you in a couple of weeks.

Virtual bachelor party! Everybody sends WolfKook kinky pics via e-mail tonight!

Congratulations, Wolf!