Do uncontrolled skeletons and zombies behave badly?
Do uncontrolled skeletons and zombies behave badly?
Once an unintelligent undead (skeleton or zombie) is no longer controlled because its master created too many undead and so exceeded the 4HD x ECL limit what does it do? Is there an offical answer to this (in or out of Ravenloft)?
The cure for what ails you
I don't know about generally. (I'd guess that if it was a zombie or skeleton it cannot become self willed so it would fall over inanimate, but I could be wrong.)
In Ravenloft though there's a bit in Van Richten's Guide to the Walking Dead which may have some answers. It's suggested that even mindless undead have a spark of evil in them that can cause them to go rogue when their creator loses control.
If you're the DM on this, I'd say "DM's prerogative" all the way.
In Ravenloft though there's a bit in Van Richten's Guide to the Walking Dead which may have some answers. It's suggested that even mindless undead have a spark of evil in them that can cause them to go rogue when their creator loses control.
If you're the DM on this, I'd say "DM's prerogative" all the way.
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Rotipher of the FoS
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At least according to the "Awakening Consciousness" sidebar (VRGttWD, p. 25), an Obedient Dead with no Intelligence score defaults to attacking any moving life form on sight, without discriminating between targets or showing the least concern for self-preservation. If no life is available to be attacked, their negative energy will gradually dissipate, causing them to crumble into dust after a few years ("Need For Destruction", p. 23 sidebar).
In a standard D&D setting, they probably carry out whatever orders they were last given (if any), then stand there doing nothing until they fall apart or are destroyed. If attacked, they'll probably still fight back, if the behavior of Obedient Dead in various modules and game-supplements is typical.
In a standard D&D setting, they probably carry out whatever orders they were last given (if any), then stand there doing nothing until they fall apart or are destroyed. If attacked, they'll probably still fight back, if the behavior of Obedient Dead in various modules and game-supplements is typical.
"Who [u]cares[/u] what the Dark Powers are? They're [i]bastards![/i] That's all I need to know of them." -- Crow
I think that's more true of 3.0 (and especially 2E and earlier) than 3.5. Once their alignment was officially changed to neutral evil, I think the default of "mindlessly attacking whatever they see" a la Romero zombies is most likely.Rotipher of the FoS wrote:In a standard D&D setting, they probably carry out whatever orders they were last given (if any), then stand there doing nothing until they fall apart or are destroyed. If attacked, they'll probably still fight back, if the behavior of Obedient Dead in various modules and game-supplements is typical.
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NeoTiamat
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Well.... in the same Awakening Consciousness sidebar, it says that any Obedient Dead who's master dies instantly gain +2 to their Int score. It wouldn't be much of a stretch to say that this intelligence increase applies to any zombie or skeleton or whatnot that becomes uncontrolled.
What does this mean? Well, it means (as I read it) that Obedient Dead under direct control are quite literally automatons who will not take any action, even defending themselves.
However, once they've become un-controlled, they start acting in an animalistic fashion. In other words, they start acting like Romero's zombies and attacking everything in sight, but also that free-willed Obedient Dead have a modicum of intellect, which likely makes them all the more dangerous.
What does this mean? Well, it means (as I read it) that Obedient Dead under direct control are quite literally automatons who will not take any action, even defending themselves.
However, once they've become un-controlled, they start acting in an animalistic fashion. In other words, they start acting like Romero's zombies and attacking everything in sight, but also that free-willed Obedient Dead have a modicum of intellect, which likely makes them all the more dangerous.
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Zettaijin
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Maybe it's just me, but I always enjoyed Marvel's Tales of the Zombie with its wandering zombie who'd end up controlled by all sorts of people and being used for all sorts of purposes, only to sometimes go against his master's wish and even flat out turning against him/her when loved ones are in danger.
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Zettaijin
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Zombies in any flavor/format of D&D/RPG being so weak and over used, a doomed soul like Simon Garth just doesn't seem all that special. I suppose when compared to the all powerful vampires and liches, it can't really be helped.
Perhaps as a lower level adventure hook, the wandering zombie could be used for some intresting stories.
Perhaps as a lower level adventure hook, the wandering zombie could be used for some intresting stories.
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A G Thing
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Neo Tiamat said...
But once freed as Neo Tiamat said they gain that +2 Intelegence then perhaps they function more as like a true animal in some sense and can and will try only slightly different approaches. No complex or rational plan but simply I cannot enter here lets try over here, as how a gold fish learns slowly to identify certain colors and equate them to past experiences.
Now as for predisposition toward evil (as said before they are always Neutral Evil) that requires personality and that is governed by Charisma which for both is at 1 so I imagine that the way their behavior is governed when freed from control is that they observe the world and react to circumstances by aggression and primitive negative emotional response slightly similar to a baby in that they don't reason the response they simply cry out when they are hungry because they have no other way of doing such. Unlike a baby however they may cry out but not know why they are doing such, and they have no real learning compacity to do beyond what they can instinctively do. They do not feel pain so they do not flinch but they try harder and harder to defeat whatever frustrates them in the most direct manor possible.
They walk on instinct, move on instinct, and kill from misinterpreted instinct with no pain or way of reasoning risk against their hate and anger or even sarrow. They do not tire so they do not stop, they may feel sarrow but not guilt or distress, they hate but do not know why, they can be frustrated but do not learn to overcome that. They however react with no control and they do so with no sense of self preservation other than the urges neccessary to keep them sated in their drives. They are always NEvil so they only have the evil emotions to draw upon when reacting.
It is possible however without some unifing force they may attack eachother but then the mists could have some affect on them or the Dark Powers may not let that happen in Ravenloft so that is up to the DM to determine.
Zettaijin said...
Now heres my view of Zombies and how I use them...
Zombies are not underpowered nor are they over used really. They have been unfortunately set into the rut of the stupid slow and hack fodder material as the PC's slash through them with ease. In their MM 3.5 listing they are not given the plague or horde threat aspect of what is normally associated with them. Since they are mindless the Zombie Lord in DoD is a good mastermind for them.
Now here is what I see that can be done to make them more interesting...
Give Zombies some sort of cursed or plague based bite that deals some sort of damage to the affected person each day that cannot be easily cured or healed. Of course death from this curse or disease should result in zombification. Ghoul Fever is a good substitue that can be applied to the Zombie quite easy as is said below.
The DC if a curse scale it to be DC 12+1 per HD beyond the first 2, but if a plague then perhaps it should rise from DC 12-15 with no real scaling up or down unless you are using it as a more virulent plague then make it as high as you wish but Zombies unless all made from high HD creatures are low HD themselves (usually 2 at most).
Still following the rules of the MM 3.5 you could make commoner lvls the base HD of humaniod races so that perhaps there are some in that field of mindless undead that are higher challanges then others. The max hit die of a Zombie is 10d12 and if you consider that the template doubles the base HD which if you count commoner lvls as such then 5th lvl commoners are 10HD Zombies. Any with higher levels fall into the catagory of being beyond zombification. This could be applied reasonably to any zero HD creature with any class lvls but if so it should be a rule that supersieds the old HD rules related with the Animate Dead spell as listed in the template listing on PG 265 MM 3.5.
Next is the fact that Ghouls are more the fastmoving cannible type Zombies then Zombies are in D&D. Use Ghouls without the paralysis touch and discribe them like Zombies and there ya go. They even have the disease quality spelled out already.
Finally have you ever done the endless horde scenario... Low level characters in a small village that is one night over run by more Zombies then they could possibly battle through directly (200-300 or so or greater) without preperation or planning. Survival and escape should be the great motivators here and exp should be with held until they have attained victory in some fashion.
Some may think that Zombies may be still easy to defeat in such circumstances but I found that they get several bonuses in large numbers that most DM's who've run this when I played never thought of.
Horde Bonus Examples:
1: Hordes of Zombies decend upon a town and in a house the PC's flee to the roof... Now the Zombies may break down the door or climb upon each other to get at them but they are slow and akward and easy pickings. There for make them press against the structure from all sides striking it in frustration at not getting up. Similar to aid another keep increasing the total check by +2 exponentially (+2+4+6+8+10+12 ect ect) until the building wall break DC is met or they damage it enough to bring it down. Some more sturdy structures may handle such indefinitely by the DM's view but small wooden houses and such are likely to crumble eventually. This may crush some Zombies but not enough to save those who fell with the building.
2: Now moving through a Horde should be hard to do with an Overun check that is made against every Zombie in the path. The DC should rise by 2 for each Zombie beyond the first and this movement should definitely draw attacks of oppertunity against the character who tries this risky move.
3: Once more in the Horde situation is the fact that Zombies do not wait to strike at a foe and push in from every angle. Have the other Zombies in back pushing the front Zombies forward or knocking them low having them fall on to the characters or lie in the square that is filled by the pushing Zombie behind.
Do this by making the Zombie resist a Bull Rush from the back Zombie or fall into the surrounded characters square. Then if they fail the check have that one make a Balance check DC equal to the PC's Strength check to resist an overrun attempt or they fall prone below the horde in thier previous square.
If they succeed at the Balance check then they land on top of the now prone character and the character is considered grappled.
Those that fall down in their original square from failing a balance check, strike from prone and the ones above them strike as normal and they all get +2 for flanking on most characters that are stuck in such circumstances.
If they fall onto the character make the character make a grapple check of DC Equal to base Zombie +1 per Zombie beyond the first that falls on top of the character as they continue to dog pile. Only the surrounding Zombies and the one directly atop the character get attacks but the character is considered grappled and is prone as well as flanked from all sides.
4: Finally is that Zombies are corpses still in some respects and masses of dead rotting bodies are likely to create disease and stench thus in the right conditions such as hot weather especially if humid a Horde of Zombies will probably produce a stench that could be equal to a Ghasts DC 15 Stench effect. The disease could be filth fever and would be transfered by strike for each hit.
First to address the basis of the entire post. I think animal instinct is governed more by Wisdom than Intelegence because Vermin have no intelegence score but they still function primitively. Also Lycanthropy grants a +2 bonus to Wisdom which does seem to be from the beast with in. Intelegence is more of complex problemsolving and rational thought, while Wisdom is the application of the knowledge and split second response. Both Zombies and Skeletons are listed with a 10 (Base for a Human) Wisdom but a - for Intelegence.Well.... in the same Awakening Consciousness sidebar, it says that any Obedient Dead who's master dies instantly gain +2 to their Int score. It wouldn't be much of a stretch to say that this intelligence increase applies to any zombie or skeleton or whatnot that becomes uncontrolled.
What does this mean? Well, it means (as I read it) that Obedient Dead under direct control are quite literally automatons who will not take any action, even defending themselves.
However, once they've become un-controlled, they start acting in an animalistic fashion. In other words, they start acting like Romero's zombies and attacking everything in sight, but also that free-willed Obedient Dead have a modicum of intellect, which likely makes them all the more dangerous.
But once freed as Neo Tiamat said they gain that +2 Intelegence then perhaps they function more as like a true animal in some sense and can and will try only slightly different approaches. No complex or rational plan but simply I cannot enter here lets try over here, as how a gold fish learns slowly to identify certain colors and equate them to past experiences.
Now as for predisposition toward evil (as said before they are always Neutral Evil) that requires personality and that is governed by Charisma which for both is at 1 so I imagine that the way their behavior is governed when freed from control is that they observe the world and react to circumstances by aggression and primitive negative emotional response slightly similar to a baby in that they don't reason the response they simply cry out when they are hungry because they have no other way of doing such. Unlike a baby however they may cry out but not know why they are doing such, and they have no real learning compacity to do beyond what they can instinctively do. They do not feel pain so they do not flinch but they try harder and harder to defeat whatever frustrates them in the most direct manor possible.
They walk on instinct, move on instinct, and kill from misinterpreted instinct with no pain or way of reasoning risk against their hate and anger or even sarrow. They do not tire so they do not stop, they may feel sarrow but not guilt or distress, they hate but do not know why, they can be frustrated but do not learn to overcome that. They however react with no control and they do so with no sense of self preservation other than the urges neccessary to keep them sated in their drives. They are always NEvil so they only have the evil emotions to draw upon when reacting.
It is possible however without some unifing force they may attack eachother but then the mists could have some affect on them or the Dark Powers may not let that happen in Ravenloft so that is up to the DM to determine.
Zettaijin said...
Now just have the Zombie's HD be higher or perhaps make it a different kind of Zombie. Zombies as they are designed to be are fodder, not grand villians so yes they are a little limited. But the Zombie Lord in DoD as I said below is a good way to increase their versatility.Zombies in any flavor/format of D&D/RPG being so weak and over used, a doomed soul like Simon Garth just doesn't seem all that special. I suppose when compared to the all powerful vampires and liches, it can't really be helped.
Perhaps as a lower level adventure hook, the wandering zombie could be used for some intresting stories.
Now heres my view of Zombies and how I use them...
Zombies are not underpowered nor are they over used really. They have been unfortunately set into the rut of the stupid slow and hack fodder material as the PC's slash through them with ease. In their MM 3.5 listing they are not given the plague or horde threat aspect of what is normally associated with them. Since they are mindless the Zombie Lord in DoD is a good mastermind for them.
Now here is what I see that can be done to make them more interesting...
Give Zombies some sort of cursed or plague based bite that deals some sort of damage to the affected person each day that cannot be easily cured or healed. Of course death from this curse or disease should result in zombification. Ghoul Fever is a good substitue that can be applied to the Zombie quite easy as is said below.
The DC if a curse scale it to be DC 12+1 per HD beyond the first 2, but if a plague then perhaps it should rise from DC 12-15 with no real scaling up or down unless you are using it as a more virulent plague then make it as high as you wish but Zombies unless all made from high HD creatures are low HD themselves (usually 2 at most).
Still following the rules of the MM 3.5 you could make commoner lvls the base HD of humaniod races so that perhaps there are some in that field of mindless undead that are higher challanges then others. The max hit die of a Zombie is 10d12 and if you consider that the template doubles the base HD which if you count commoner lvls as such then 5th lvl commoners are 10HD Zombies. Any with higher levels fall into the catagory of being beyond zombification. This could be applied reasonably to any zero HD creature with any class lvls but if so it should be a rule that supersieds the old HD rules related with the Animate Dead spell as listed in the template listing on PG 265 MM 3.5.
Next is the fact that Ghouls are more the fastmoving cannible type Zombies then Zombies are in D&D. Use Ghouls without the paralysis touch and discribe them like Zombies and there ya go. They even have the disease quality spelled out already.
Finally have you ever done the endless horde scenario... Low level characters in a small village that is one night over run by more Zombies then they could possibly battle through directly (200-300 or so or greater) without preperation or planning. Survival and escape should be the great motivators here and exp should be with held until they have attained victory in some fashion.
Some may think that Zombies may be still easy to defeat in such circumstances but I found that they get several bonuses in large numbers that most DM's who've run this when I played never thought of.
Horde Bonus Examples:
1: Hordes of Zombies decend upon a town and in a house the PC's flee to the roof... Now the Zombies may break down the door or climb upon each other to get at them but they are slow and akward and easy pickings. There for make them press against the structure from all sides striking it in frustration at not getting up. Similar to aid another keep increasing the total check by +2 exponentially (+2+4+6+8+10+12 ect ect) until the building wall break DC is met or they damage it enough to bring it down. Some more sturdy structures may handle such indefinitely by the DM's view but small wooden houses and such are likely to crumble eventually. This may crush some Zombies but not enough to save those who fell with the building.
2: Now moving through a Horde should be hard to do with an Overun check that is made against every Zombie in the path. The DC should rise by 2 for each Zombie beyond the first and this movement should definitely draw attacks of oppertunity against the character who tries this risky move.
3: Once more in the Horde situation is the fact that Zombies do not wait to strike at a foe and push in from every angle. Have the other Zombies in back pushing the front Zombies forward or knocking them low having them fall on to the characters or lie in the square that is filled by the pushing Zombie behind.
Do this by making the Zombie resist a Bull Rush from the back Zombie or fall into the surrounded characters square. Then if they fail the check have that one make a Balance check DC equal to the PC's Strength check to resist an overrun attempt or they fall prone below the horde in thier previous square.
If they succeed at the Balance check then they land on top of the now prone character and the character is considered grappled.
Those that fall down in their original square from failing a balance check, strike from prone and the ones above them strike as normal and they all get +2 for flanking on most characters that are stuck in such circumstances.
If they fall onto the character make the character make a grapple check of DC Equal to base Zombie +1 per Zombie beyond the first that falls on top of the character as they continue to dog pile. Only the surrounding Zombies and the one directly atop the character get attacks but the character is considered grappled and is prone as well as flanked from all sides.
4: Finally is that Zombies are corpses still in some respects and masses of dead rotting bodies are likely to create disease and stench thus in the right conditions such as hot weather especially if humid a Horde of Zombies will probably produce a stench that could be equal to a Ghasts DC 15 Stench effect. The disease could be filth fever and would be transfered by strike for each hit.
"There is only one true answer to any and every question. The rest are just vagaries and obfuscations."
I had some fun with a group of players whose characters were all low enough level that a zombie wasn't a threat but a hoard of zombies was. Having fought their way through a graveyard and then down to the bottom of a catacomb they confronted the Zombie Lord in his lair. They fought through his body guard of zombies to him but a new hoard was streaming into the room behind them threatening to overwhelm them. They slew the Zombie Lord and turned the hoard that they expected to attack them as an uncontrolled mob. After standing, staring at the characters for a moment the zombies put their head to one side as though listening to someone then simultaneously turned and walked back to their graves where they lay down. That really spooked a few of the players who were used to ravenous zombies attacking them whenever possible.
On a side note: One of the characters, who'd failed a power check in the build up to the descent into the catacomb, started having nightmares after this incident. Whenever he slept in a bed he'd wake up in a cold sweat with a feeling that he'd been sleeping on soft ground and that someone had been whispering lullabies to him. To get a good nights sleep in a bed he had to have a little earth from a fresh grave in his bed. Which both caused problems with collecting it and explaining the mess to hosts and inn keepers at the better establishments they stayed at...
On a side note: One of the characters, who'd failed a power check in the build up to the descent into the catacomb, started having nightmares after this incident. Whenever he slept in a bed he'd wake up in a cold sweat with a feeling that he'd been sleeping on soft ground and that someone had been whispering lullabies to him. To get a good nights sleep in a bed he had to have a little earth from a fresh grave in his bed. Which both caused problems with collecting it and explaining the mess to hosts and inn keepers at the better establishments they stayed at...
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A G Thing
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Wow! Sounds like a great adventure impworks! I also have more success with scaring multiple characters with the horde of Zombies. I usually try to refrain from the lone Zombie unless it is just a scare tactic for a lone PC or is essential to create some mood or move the plot... Of course since you used "Mystical Zombies" they may have other influences and that is great that you kept the players off of their toes like that. 
I especially like the connected powers check as it seems to fit perfectly with the entire adventure and seemed a good curse.
Just curious what the benifit of the check was for the player and what stage? I imagine it as fairly early on the progression if they were low level but hey sounds great and it has inspired me to develop further on a game plot. Can I also perhaps talk with you for some ideas as it seems to be a great inspiration on a game?
I especially like the connected powers check as it seems to fit perfectly with the entire adventure and seemed a good curse.
Just curious what the benifit of the check was for the player and what stage? I imagine it as fairly early on the progression if they were low level but hey sounds great and it has inspired me to develop further on a game plot. Can I also perhaps talk with you for some ideas as it seems to be a great inspiration on a game?
"There is only one true answer to any and every question. The rest are just vagaries and obfuscations."
The PC in question made the mistake of a little impromptu grave robbing. Its 16 years since I ran that game and I have to confess my memories a bit hazy on what their reward was and I don’t have their character sheet to check. I think it might have been something like the dwarves’ miner’s skills but with successes on rolls 2 less than for dwarves (AD&D 2nd Ed rules).
Rather than spin this too far off cure's topic about uncontrolled undead I'll start a new thread about this adventure. Its one of my old adventures I'm looking at updating to 3rd Ed so getting some feedback on it would be helpful.
Rather than spin this too far off cure's topic about uncontrolled undead I'll start a new thread about this adventure. Its one of my old adventures I'm looking at updating to 3rd Ed so getting some feedback on it would be helpful.
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A G Thing
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Sounds good! Just PM me or E-mail on where the thread will be and I would love to help!Rather than spin this too far off cure's topic about uncontrolled undead I'll start a new thread about this adventure. Its one of my old adventures I'm looking at updating to 3rd Ed so getting some feedback on it would be helpful.
"There is only one true answer to any and every question. The rest are just vagaries and obfuscations."