Old DM, New players.. Need some insight

[RandomHavoc]

I'm in a rather unusual position, well for me anyways, and could really use some help from the community...

Some background on me: I've been playing DnD for probably around 16 years, growing up with 2nd ed, and Ravenloft, I know my way around the gothic horror structures fairly well, and have been asked by an old friend to begin DMing it again for a new group. The problem is in the difference in the new group, sort of...

Some background on the group: With the lone exception of my old friend they strike me as being mid-high power gamers.. Relying more heavily on heavy magicked equipment in many of their adventures than they do on their wits, and ability to reason. Frequently while watching them game I've seen them charge headlong into situations that as a DM, I'd slaughter the entire group for so brazenly ignoring the dangers. Also they play 3rd ed and are quite resistant to reverting to 2nd ed. Most of them are fairly new to gaming, less than 5 years experience for most of them, the sole exception being my old friend Drew who has about the same amount of experience as I do. Most of the advanced rules I've found in the 3rd ed DMG, and PHB for that matter, are completely ignored though in the group, leading me to conclude that they either do not fully understand them, or simply haven't read them... They are however a great group of people, and I feel most of them are willing to learn, provided I take a step in their direction and learn 3rd ed.

The barrier of 2nd ed to 3rd ed isn't even remotely a problem, from reading the d20 material I find it more or less intuitive, just more getting used to... But how does one introduce a canon Ravenloft horror game to a group of cannon fodder magic lovers? I think the campaign setting can really kick this group up to the next level of RP ability if they are willing to give it a chance, but I'm afraid the low magic setting, and the horror/fear mystique will turn them off. None of them have any previous experience with the land of mists, and I'm wanting to start a campaign with Ravenloftian native PCs, to avoid the 'weekend in hell' as I feel they would find the mist transport cheesy, and would bring in magical items that I do not want in my campaign... Long story short: How does one introduce Ravenloft to first time players? My old group, long since disbanded, had the RP skills to start with that made Ravenloft an easy crossover for them, this group, I'm not so sure.... But I think they're quite capable of learning..

Oh, btw, long time lurker, new poster, but I hope to change that and become a part of the community.. So hello to my fellow creatures of the night..

[Reginald de Curry]

You could start them off in Darkon, which is/was Greyhawk-like in its nature. Give them a few details before you start, to differentiate it from what they might be used to, such as the major religions and holidays, and feel free to adapt things to suit your purposes. If you intend to keep Necropolis as-is, then keep the PCs the #3!! away from it unless/until they know the dangers (you don't want the entire party to drop dead just because they crossed the street).

Adventure-wise, a few "standard" adventures couldn't hurt, as it would let the players get used to their characters and the world, and it would give you a feel for how to handle them. Let the more horrific features seep in over time.

[WolfKook]

Encourage your players to create characters that fit into the world. Especifically, let them read the RL PHB and choose their place of origin, and use the suggestions on the Gazetteers to help them mold their characters according to their birthplaces; warn them of the consequences of races with high OR ratings, and try to use the questionnaire to force them to think about their characters beyond the numbers. You may even suggest that they write their stories in a diary-like fashion.

For a first or second adventure, I would suggest using a VERY POWERFUL foe, which would like to toy with the characters before finishing them off, and which has a vulnerability that may allow the PCs to defeat it. Let them have a first encounter with their nemesis, and don't be afraid of killing one or two them if they prove too careless and keep on trying to defeat your foe by sheer force. Try to let them escape and gather enough information to return to defeat it.

I'm with Reginald, however, in that you should not push them into a different kind of gameplay, but start changing it slowly. Perhaps a good zombie storie, with the characters chopping-off heads all around could be enjoyable for an Eberron-born hack-and-slasher. OTOH, this is Ravenloft, and there will come a time when they cannot fight the zombies anymore, and they will have to RUN!!!

Use the techniques of terror, the fear and horror checks (If they fail to react accordingly to a certain scenario), and the powers checks. They won't have an easy time adapting, but, hopefully, they will end up doing so.

[Joël of the FoS]

Upon caracter creation, I ask that a third of the feats are from RL books.

It solves the min/maxing problem, and helps them enter the RL universe.

Joël

[VAN]

For a first or second adventure, I would suggest using a VERY POWERFUL foe, which would like to toy with the characters before finishing them off, and which has a vulnerability that may allow the PCs to defeat it.

An idea about that is a ghost. It can be a 2nd rank with 2 cool powers as posess or domination and -2 CON or energy drain.
The PC cannot defeat it if they don't find its allergen. That means they should gather info, get used to be diffident and calculate the info they get, since some people might be posessed or dominated.

I think it's a good adventure to get the Ravenloft's atmosphaire.

[Le Noir Faineant]

MY advice: Run a published module, but a tough one.

That might show them what the setting expects from them and how they adapt best. If you set up the campaign for yourself, it might seem as if you would punish them for their style of playing.

[Jester of the FoS]

- Start them at first level. Solves the magic problem.
- Start them slow, a balance. For every fight they can beat-up there should be a brains one.
- Ravenloft isn't anti-magic. There is all manner of casters and items, but all should be unique with backstories and origins and names. It's not just a +1 sword but the weapon passed down a bloodline for eldest son to eldest son.
- It has to be fun for them. As a DM it is your JOB to make it fun, your whole reason for being. But don't ignore yourself in the process. If they don't have fun they go elsewhere. If you don't have fun it becomes a chore.
- Ravenloft is primarily about the atmosphere. It doesn't matter if you're playing a hack-n-slash adventure with high magic if you can still maintain the tone, mood and atmosphere of Ravenloft. The rest comes with time.

[The Giamarga]

Do you already have any of the 3E Ravenloft books? If not do you plan to purchase any?

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Good advice so far. My only addition:

Tell them what you're trying to do rather than just inflict it on them. Give them a small blurb about what Ravenloft means to you before character creation. Stay away from stuff like darklords and powers checks, but let them know that this is D&D with a horror twist. Tell them that you're aiming for atmosphere and roleplaying, but assure them that there will be the opportunity for combat at times, and while the nature of the rewards may differ, they will be rewarded. Tell them straight out that Ravenloft isn't about kicking in the door of a monster's lair, killing it and looting the body. It's about being on the run, at the mercy of a creepy and sinister world, trying to survive and protect the innocent who truly need your help more than in most worlds. Give them some pop-culture examples of the type of game you inted to run. (My personal example is early-season X-files. But if yours is Lovecraft, or Bram Stoker's Dracula, or the Excorcist, or Van Helsing, or even Abbott and Costello meet Frankenstein, that's fine, just let them know.) If they know what kind of game to expect going into it, they will enjoy it all the more, I think.

OK, one more addition: Consider making them start at 1st level, as mentioned, but with only an NPC class. This can emphasize the concept of unlikely heroes thrown in over their head. At 2nd level, they can start multiclassing into "real" classes.

[RandomHavoc]

Do you already have any of the 3E Ravenloft books? If not do you plan to purchase any?

I've acquired copies of most of the 3ed Ravenloft, and core DnD books on .pdf, the problem becomes no computer to read them at my gaming site. I'm slowly remedying this by transcribing to paper most of what I think will be most beneficial to myself, and the group, but it is a slow process as I'm forced to summarize them quite a bit... I'd print them out in their entirety, but printer ink cartridges are a bit expensive atm... *shrugs* One does the best they can...

Thank you all for the advice so far, I've been thinking a lot about it, and most of the advice makes sense to me..

[CaptainTrips]

I've acquired copies of most of the 3ed Ravenloft, and core DnD books on .pdf, the problem becomes no computer to read them at my gaming site. I'm slowly remedying this by transcribing to paper most of what I think will be most beneficial to myself, and the group, but it is a slow process as I'm forced to summarize them quite a bit... I'd print them out in their entirety, but printer ink cartridges are a bit expensive atm... *shrugs* One does the best they can...

If I may recommend Stiggybaby:
http://www.stiggybaby.com/cgi-bin/mivav ... Code=WWPSS

They have a fair amount of the White Wolf / Sword & Sorcery 3e Ravenloft books at 25% off of the cover price. That is probably cheaper than printing them on your home printer, and they are nicely bound to boot!

I have made numerous orders over the years from Stiggybaby, including within the past minth, and I have been very satisfied with there service.

[WolfKook]

And don't forget to tell us how you've been doing!

If it may be of any help, WotC's Dungeon Master's Guide II offers an interesting overview of the different kind of players and the kind of approaches you may take to provide for each one... It is a very interesting read.

[Turnip]

I have a group of 6 right now running in Darkon. I have a lot of different factions running within the city. Trust is a luxury my player's don't have at the moment, they are very fearful of just about everyone. This type of who's who cloak and dagger environment kind of leans both ways, as I have both types of players in the group. I have 2 Hack and Slashers and 4 Rpers. So I try and let the hack and slashers have a night every 3rd night or so. So 2 games of Rp build with maybe 1 combat sequence each. Then a 3rd night where everything comes to a horrific bedlam. It rewards the hack and slashers for their patience because well by the time they get into that combat what they are fighting is a significant rp victory for even them. They love getting the bad guy that's gotten away. So in your case I would suggest the same thing. A couple of games for you and one for them.

Also something that's helped is making NPC contacts that appeal to the hack and slasher. I have a poison salesmen/apothecary that is basically there partly to give out rumors, but mostly to lure my hack and slashers into using his evil wares. They like talking to a grizzled violent old guy. It gets them right in the power gamer. And got the both of them talking quite a bit in a game where they previously hadn't said much. I'm working slowly to get them out of that video game smashing type shell.

[Archedius]

sounds like everything is going well with your group. My problem is in my group of 4 I only have 1 or 2 rpers; the rest just like DnD cause it's DnD and don't care about the story or rping that much- heck they don't care about combat that much either. It is wierd. Anyway gl and keep us posted as I always like to hear about other people's campaigns.