Dark Powers: Why are they weaker than deities?

[Igor the Henchman]

What benefit there might be for the DPs to be weak? Maybe so Azalin actually has a chance of outsmarting them every now and again?

But really, there's absolutely nothing in Canon that suggests the DPs aren't gods. Double check the first page of the Ravenloft DM's Guide: "The Dark Powers are a creative device for the Dungeon Master. They're whatever you want to be in your campaign, and no book will ever contradict you".

[mistshadow2k4]

I always assumed they were as powerful as deities -- and powereful deities at that. I remember a post somewhere on this board stating something like that the desingers have to keep the DPs within certain bounds or the gods of other worlds would "come and knock their heads together". I think that if the gods of other worlds could do that they would have by now. It's difficult to believe that when thousands of people on a world disappear in a strange mist that a god of that world wouldn't notice. Exactly what the relationship is like between the DPs and gods of other worlds is open to speculation, if there is any relationship.

I've toyed with the idea that maybe the DPs are truly abnormal in some way, so abnormal that most gods can't even perceive them. If so, it might explain why they're so fascinated with mortal concepts about evil. But that's just me.

[Luke Fleeman]

My 2 cents:

The Dark Powers are necessarily stronger than anything inside of Ravenloft. Hence the reason they can snare beings like Vecna..One must remember that a failure to exhibit power does not mean they do not possess it. Just because they don't trap Greater Gods does not mean they cannot. Anything they allow to transpire they allow for their own reasons.

Gods derive their powers from being worshipped/served- at least according to most D&D material. The Dark powers do not require this, it seems, but then again all of the deities of Ravenloft may be manifestations of the Dark powers who draw on their worshippers.

So what does this mean?

I think this should be an unanswered question. There should be no comparison of power levels, let alone any quantification of their power. The Dark Powers are deux ex machina- a tool for DMs to make things happen. Leave it at that. If they need to grab a greater deity- it happens. If they need to be rebuffed by a 0-level beggar, they are. Take it for what its worth.

[Grigg_Deadbreaker]

Hey everybody, been a while. Just throwing in my two cents here.

For some reason I'm getting the image of Ravenloft as a large web containing hundreds of extremely venomous spiders symbolizing the Dark Powers. The gods are like people, each powerful enough to rend the web, maybe even killing off a few of the spiders, but not before likely receiving a lethal bite or ten. So, they leave the web alone unless they really need to retrieve something that's fallen into it. And while the Dark Powers may be able to repair the web with a bit of effort if it is rent, they know that spreading the web too far into the gods territory or getting a little too bite-happy might provoke a concerted extermination effort. So, the two factions basically ignore one another unless forced to interact.

In Vecna's case, the web had snared something that was disruptive and destructive to the web, so the Dark Powers had a choice. Either let him go, or risk him destroying more of the web in his attempts to escape.

Well, it's a thought anyway.

[Manofevil]

The great detente of the original superpowers. Anyone else enjoy the movie 'Constantine'

[Dion of the Fraternity]

My Ravenloft campaigns describe the Dark Powers simply as over-encompassing beings that have nothing to do whatsoever with divinity. They are not gods (nor anti-gods, that's missing the point entirely), but they are as powerful as them. They are a sentient force that exists alongside the gods but totally different from them.

As for specifics about who they are really, well that's for the little sidebar in RLDMG to explain.

[vipera aspis]

i have always gone with the "unnamable, untainted, vile unknown that has always existed". something that a few of the other most ancient and maddened gods may know of though rumor to have existed long before the hells. the dark powers are massive, shapeless, horrible, ancient, untouchable and alien. comprised of shadow, expended thoughts of other beings, negative energy, mist, dark matter and things neither man nor god can describe.



yes, that or the nightmare court.

[Undead Cabbage]

*looks around completely lost*

Where does it state that deities have power over the Dark Powers?

In fact, where does it ever state definitively what the Dark Powers are in any regard(Other than that novel that was non-canon)? I don't see how there's grounds to say that the DPs are supposed to be less, more, or equally as powerful as deities.

And trust me, I've heard some shaking ideas on what the DPs are. For instance, I was on the Forgotten Realms board Candlekeep a while back, and someone stated that the Dark Powers are supposed to be Yugoloths trying to create the perfect Ultraloth .

In short, aren't the DPs now, have been, and always will be whatever the heck we want them to be?

[HuManBing]

Sorry for the late bump, but I finally found a passage that explains why I even brought this thread up.

p. 54 of Black Box Ravenloft "Realm of Terror" guidebook, talking about the Horn of Valhalla:

For each berserker summoned, there is a 1% cumulative chance that a greater power from Valhalla will appear before them. [...] The greater powers are not bound by the laws of Ravenloft.

(emphasis mine)

I'm pretty certain there is some similar quote about allowing artifacts to work normally in Ravenloft too.

I bring this up NOT because I agree with it. (Personally, I think Ravenloft's Dark Powers should be deities.) But I bring this up because a lot of people seemed to think my initial question had no merit whatsoever, and I thought this might go some way to convincing you that I'm not in fact stark raving loony.*

The original question has more or less been answered and I do not seriously expect any further discussion on this topic.




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* Yet.

[Sylaire]

One thing, I suppose, is the obvious reference to Ravenloft as the Demiplane of Dread. That is, it's not a "full-grown" plane of existence, so the Dark Powers would by that logic not be equal in stature to the rulers of the Outer Planes. I tend to agree with HB that given the "home-field advantage" the DPs tend to trump even the greater gods (unless one somehow showed up in person, not as an avatar or whatever--i.e. see the original Black Box description of the changes to the Horn of Valhalla). This especially makes sense in terms of clerical spells. After all, why on earth would the deities of good, knowing that their cleric and paladin minions are going toe-to-toe with some of the nastiest evils around in a setting where everything plays in favor of the bad guys, hamstring their most faithful followers even further by gutting their holy powers? Implication: they can't.