Shackle spell

[kottakinge]

Hello.
There is this spell in VRA.
I give it to my player wizard without really notice all the effect.
In fact it's the ultimate weapon against ghosts.
OK it's a 4th level spells and it requires a ranged touch attack, but there is No Saving Throw!!
Don't you think it's a bit too much?

[alhoon]

In fact... nope.

The Ultimate weapon against ghosts isn't very good without a way to permanently destroy the ghost. Also unless I'm mistaken, the ghost could leave the material plane becoming ethereal and bypass the shackle.

Quite a potent spell, better than hold person since it affects undead etc but it is a 4th level spell, so I don't mind very much.

Oh, BTW I replaced the ranged touch with a reflex save.

[kottakinge]

the ghost could leave the material plane becoming ethereal and bypass the shackle.

Well no, in fact as a force spell it affects also ethereal creatures, only a strenght check DC30 can overcome it (and ghost has no strenght so they cannot).
I agree with you for the reflex save, it's far better.
Oh and it's only a 3rd level spell for cleric and palladin.

[alhoon]

No. A force spell affects incorporeal not ethereal creatures. Ethereal creatures are actually and effectively on another plane of existance.
So yeah, the spectre is caught up for good. The ethereal ghost won't even see the bonds that hold its spectre friend.

Also: Clerics get hold person on 2nd level and should be better fighting undead so I believe it is reasonable to have this as a 3rd level spell. I wouldn't bother about Paladins BTW They get 3rd level spells at 11th level if the have 16 wisdom or 12th.

[Spiteful Crow]

No. A force spell affects incorporeal not ethereal creatures. Ethereal creatures are actually and effectively on another plane of existance.

Actually, force spells DO affect ethereal creatures. They're on another plane of existence, but one that is coterminous with the material.

Although ethereal creatures can't do anything to affect creatures on the Material Plane, the opposite isn't true. Any magical effect with the force descriptor extends to the Ethereal when it is created on the Material Plane (the opposite is not true). A caster can target a spell such as magic missile, for example, at an ethereal creature.

Quote taken from this Rules of the Game article:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041012a

[kottakinge]

Thanks for the precision Spiteful Crow.
That's why i won't give this spell unless a few changes.
First there will be a reflex check

[alhoon]

Very nioce spiteful Crow. I have assumed that since Ethereals can't affect Materials the opposite was also true. Thanks for the clarification.

I'm not sure that I'll use it, but chances are that I'll.