Recovering from lycanthropy

[steveflam]

My pc failed her DC miserably. This is in Forgotten Realms. The party is off in search of Baelnorn right now. They did some research on how to find this Lich who they've been told can help them with their infected friend.

[Spiteful Crow]

I am concerned that an unassisted DC 20 Fort and Will save would mean that no one could ever be cured of lycanthropy, since most PC classes have a bad save for one of those.

This is Ravenloft, and as such, that's kind of the point.

To lose your character every time they get cut by a lycanthrope?

[Tadelin]

To lose your character every time they get cut by a lycanthrope?

No. That recovery and redemption should be so difficult that one may think it impossible. DC 20 is still possible unless the total modifiers are so against you that the number is negative. But it should never be easy in Ravenloft.

Outside of Ravenloft, I can see it being far easier, because it's less for the morality of things and more for the fun aspect. Not saying that you can't have fun in Ravenloft. Just that few settings are as dark and "bleak" as our beloved Demiplane.

[Spiteful Crow]

To lose your character every time they get cut by a lycanthrope?

No. That recovery and redemption should be so difficult that one may think it impossible. DC 20 is still possible unless the total modifiers are so against you that the number is negative. But it should never be easy in Ravenloft.

Just a DC 20 isn't unreasonable. It's the DC20 Fort AND Will save that would screw you over. Most classes are weak to one or the other, so you have a MUCH higher chance of failure than with just one DC20 save. It's supposed to be "Blowing up the Death Star" difficult, not "needle in a 1 square mile warehouse full of haystacks" difficult.

[Sysane]

Interesting thread.

I created a PrC for characters that had been inflicted with lycanthropy and later cured of it called Moonblooded for use in my EtCR game. If you're interested I could e-mail you a copy.

[steveflam]

I created a PrC for characters that had been inflicted with lycanthropy and later cured of it called Moonblooded for use in my EtCR game. If you're interested I could e-mail you a copy

If you do not mind terribly, Sysane, I would be interested in that. Just pm me for my e-mail address, thanks!

[VAN]

Just a DC 20 isn't unreasonable. It's the DC20 Fort AND Will save that would screw you over. Most classes are weak to one or the other, so you have a MUCH higher chance of failure than with just one DC20 save.

Yes, for this reason I'm afraid were-creatures more than every other monster, because it's easy to get infected and very difficult to cure yourself.

[Tadelin]

Just a DC 20 isn't unreasonable. It's the DC20 Fort AND Will save that would screw you over. Most classes are weak to one or the other, so you have a MUCH higher chance of failure than with just one DC20 save. It's supposed to be "Blowing up the Death Star" difficult, not "needle in a 1 square mile warehouse full of haystacks" difficult.

I believe you missed the point of my statement. I'm well aware that most classes have one or the other as a good save (clerics, druids, and monks being the only core classes with both as good saves). The point is this is Ravenloft. You're supposed to find it difficult - or even near impossible - to break free from the temptation of evil. If it was simple, everyone would be able to do it.

Besides... Even with a weak save in one or the other, if you follow the steps that were added above it, and you truly want to break free, you would have done enough so that the save are reasonable. A DC 20 on both works to keep people from half-assing the attempt.

[Isabella]

The point is this is Ravenloft. You're supposed to find it difficult - or even near impossible - to break free from the temptation of evil. If it was simple, everyone would be able to do it.

I don't want this to become a touchy subject, so I add the disclaimer that this is opinion! And I realize it as such.

It all depends on how you look at Ravenloft - people have very different views on it. I don't feel that's the point of Ravenloft at all. I think hope of redemption is the most important part; it makes falling all the more reprehensible and gives players a reason to fight, and maybe try to help those who have fallen astray. Without it, the whole thing feels like White Wolf.

The major problem I have with the high saves is that it isn't breaking free of temptation for the player - it's rolling a die and hoping you get lucky. There's no emotional investment in the final step. If you fail, there's no feeling of gothic anguish at the monster you've become, because the player didn't do it willingly. They just got unlucky.

I realize part of the theme of werebeasts is the loss of control, but in my personal opinion, damnation due to a bad die roll just isn't fun. I know some people see it very differently that I do, but I feel that werebeasts are already dangerous enough.
-D&D 3.5 means they keep their DR against magic weapons. (So I heard...)
-The player has to make a DC 18 Fort save every time a werebeast hits them.
-Even if they're cured, they can get infected again, easily.
In my opinion, the odds are stacked against players enough. I'm all for making it really hard OR only having one shot, but not both.

Basically, the whole thing boils down to using that rule set or not. It's just personal preference in the end.

Besides... Even with a weak save in one or the other, if you follow the steps that were added above it, and you truly want to break free, you would have done enough so that the save are reasonable. A DC 20 on both works to keep people from half-assing the attempt.

I'm pretty sure the point is you can break even on the saves at best; otherwise the problem of a violent werewolf (who has more "chances" to atone) having an advantage over someone who kept themselves from slaughtering innocents crops up.

Have we gotten off topic or what?

[HuManBing]

I agree with Isabella. Ravenloft is not about the one-in-a-million chance. It's about facing temptation and doing the right thing.

Where is this rule about the DC 20 Will and Fort save, anyway? It sounds like whoever came up with that one really felt lycanthropes weren't powerful enough or something.

Edit: Just went back into the thread and found it's a house rule. So this makes me feel even more confident in saying... "Not in my campaign!"

[Tadelin]

I don't want this to become a touchy subject, so I add the disclaimer that this is opinion! And I realize it as such.

Quite understood. I've always viewed Ravenloft as a setting where damnation was inevitable, and the struggle for redemption was not meant for everyone to be successful with while under the watchful eyes of the Dark Powers. Outside of the Demiplane, it still takes divine intervention, but it's usually far easier than freeing yourself when in Ravenloft. Again, my view, which I understand doesn't necessarily mesh with others.

Have we gotten off topic or what?

Just a tad, but without enlightened debate on something like this, how are we to know what's a good idea and what isn't?

[Archedius]

I see both sides on this issue- I'm sorta in the middle. I see how dangerous lycanthropy is- but I think the will save is a bit much.
IMC, evil people who learn to embrace the disease eventually are able to keep their mind when they transform as a reward for their moral failure at the cost of cannibalism and loss of any possible close relationship. Those who abhore what they've become lose control when they transform.
I keep only the fortitude save when attempting the cure if they are moral and wish to rid themselves of the disease. If they are corrupt and wish to be cured for a non-altruistic reason it is both a fort and will save.
Lycanthropy for me doesn't turn you into a beast- it brings out what was already there. The ultimate uninhibitor for violence and lust as it were. I almost tend to think it is more noble for a lycanthrope to commit suicide rather than endanger those around him by his continued existence; not to mention how the ritual to cure him could go wrong- but then again I find a certain beauty in fatalism.

[Spiteful Crow]

The point is this is Ravenloft.

[VAN]

Thank you all for your advice and ideas. With your help we managto cure Tarlyn's PC!

[cure]

How frightfully, horribly, maddeningly undreadful . . .