Fixing the conjuration school (summoning and calling)

[tomokaicho]

In theory, the reckless spellcaster calling otherworldly entities from the burning pits of hell or the depths of the abyss is a perfect fit for Ravenloft. In practice, it is not, due to the way Conjuration (Summoning) and Conjuration (Calling) works in the Ravenloft setting under the rules. Simply put, any conjurer calling on an outer planer entity cannot do the call and dismiss thing, the entity is consigned to Ravenloft permanently. This being, the conjurer trope is really limited by the rules.

I recall John Mangrum writing (its available somewhere on this website) that in a potential revised edition of rules for Ravenloft, rules for conjuration would be completely redone. I presume this means that outsiders would be able to be dismissed back to their own plane.

My suggestion to allow conjurers to exist in Ravenloft as conjurers is to simply allow outsiders to be dismissed by the conjurer (or banished by others) until they fail a powers check, or if the outsider has a "dark desire" to remain. At this point, the outsider gets a phylactery as normal in the Ravenloft setting.

As for summoning, that is conjuring a creature out of magical energies, the creatures brought into temporary existence by Conjuration (Summoning) spells in 3.5e are not brought from elsewhere. That is a holdover from previous editions of D&D. In 3.5e, they are simply created by magic temporarily, modelled on creatures existing elsewhere. Therefore, there is no need for specific rules gimping the Conjuration (Summoning) school of spells.

Summary: Allow spellcasters capable of casting spells from the Conjuration (Calling) school to call creatures to the Dread Domains and dismiss them as normal. Only called creatures that fail a powers check are forced to remain. Conjuration (Summoning) spells work as in other campaign settings.

[Mistmaster]

I agree with this purposal.

[alhoon]

I think the "mist outsider" could be used for temporary summonings. You don't bring a fiend, you bring something from the mists that resembles a fiend more or less as tomokaicho suggests. However, it is a "Mist" outsider so no reality wrinkle and spells and effects targeting that kind of creature work.

[tomokaicho]

I think the "mist outsider" could be used for temporary summonings. You don't bring a fiend, you bring something from the mists that resembles a fiend more or less as tomokaicho suggests. However, it is a "Mist" outsider so no reality wrinkle and spells and effects targeting that kind of creature work.

That, or simply saying that Conjuration (Summoning) spells create the creatures whole cloth fixes summonings, but Conjuration (Calling) spells are more fraught with problems, not only mechanically, but also from the perspective of the setting.

Under the official rules, a single conjurer could fill the dread domains with outsiders, by just using the planar binding line of spells to bring them to the dread domains in large numbers. Note that the conjurer need not negotiate with the fiend. The conjurer can call the creature into a magical circle and simply walk away. Eventually the creature will free itself, have a phylactery, and never be able to leave. The risk to the conjurer is minimal, as the conjurer need not expose it's identity.

In this way, the setting quickly breaks. And one could come up with excuses for why most conjurers would not do this, but it only takes one to do it.

The best way to handle it, in my opinion, is to cut the Gordian Knot and just rule that Summoning/Calling works normally, and that the extraplanar nature of these outsiders means that they are strongly linked to their plane of origin, and unlike creatures from the prime material plane, can simply leave the dread domains, as long as they have not failed a powers check. If they do fail a powers check, and this point they get the phylactery and reality wrinkle.

Making this one simple alteration would make conjuration viable in Ravenloft, both for conjurers as a class, and for the verisimilitude of the setting.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

...or the Conjurer's are linked with the fiend and that is the reason nobody does that,

"The conjurer can call the creature into a magical circle and simply walk away. Eventually the creature will free itself, have a phylactery, and never be able to leave."

or if they do it lasts for a minimum time as such Conjurers end up dead or worse.

The fiend may not know who conjured it but can feel where that person is about, often teleporting to that place to seek revenge for its trapping in the Demiplane.

[tomokaicho]

...or the Conjurer's are linked with the fiend and that is the reason nobody does that,

"The conjurer can call the creature into a magical circle and simply walk away. Eventually the creature will free itself, have a phylactery, and never be able to leave."

or if they do it lasts for a minimum time as such Conjurers end up dead or worse.

The fiend may not know who conjured it but can feel where that person is about, often teleporting to that place to seek revenge for its trapping in the Demiplane.

You can house rule that, but that isn't in the rules.

This constitutes an instance of "one could come up with excuses for why most conjurers would not do this", and it makes conjuration less viable than under the official rules. The purpose of this thread is to make conjuration usable within the Ravenloft setting. Your proposal just adds another layer of "no" on top of the "no" that is already there.

[tomokaicho]

Here is a spell used by Ravenloft conjurors to mitigate the potential negative effects of calling creatures to the dread domains. Unfortunately, due to prejudice against conjurors, Dr Van Richten knew nothing of this spell.

Planar Anchoring
Abjuration
Level: Clr 4, Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One outsider
Duration: Equal to the duration of the calling spell (D) or one day per caster level
Saving Throw: None if the creature is bound by a calling spell within a Magic Circle, Will negates otherwise
Spell Resistance: None

Planar Anchoring temporarily ensures a called creature will return to its home plane under specific conditions. This spell is essential for demon hunters seeking to banish malevolent outsiders back to their dark realms, providing a safeguard against the creature becoming permanently trapped within the dread domains.

When Planar Anchoring is cast on a called creature, it creates a magical connection between the creature and its home plane. If the creature is bound within a Magic Circle, it will be returned to its home plane once the duration of the Planar Anchoring expires. If the creature is not within a Magic Circle, it will be returned to its home plane only if it is killed or banished before the Planar Anchoring duration ends, in this case, one day per caster level.

If the called creature is successfully bound by the calling spell within a Magic Circle, it cannot resist the effects of the Planar Anchoring and does not receive a Will save. If the called creature is not bound within a Magic Circle, it receives a Will save to resist the effects of the Planar Anchoring spell. This spell has no effect on outsiders that have failed a powers check.

The Planar Anchoring spell also has the added benefit of severing the link between the fiend and any phylactery it may possess for the duration of the spell, ensuring that its banishment is permanent.

Material Component:
A small item symbolizing the creature's home plane, such as a vial of water for the Elemental Plane of Water, a pinch of dust for the Elemental Plane of Earth, or a fragment of ice for the Plane of Ice. This component is consumed when the spell is cast.

Lore

The presence of fiends and other malevolent entities in the Dread Domains often has a disruptive effect on the fabric of reality itself. These creatures bring with them a small piece of their home plane, which is imposed upon the world. This imposition is known as a reality wrinkle and is a manifestation of the creature's extreme moral nature and its non-native origin.

The reality wrinkle represents an unstable connection between the creature and its home plane, tethering it to the Dread Domains while maintaining a link to its plane of origin. This instability occurs due to the incompatibility between the creature's inherent nature and the fabric of reality in the Dread Domains.

The reality wrinkle serves as a conduit through which the creature's home plane influences the surrounding environment, causing a distortion in the Dread Domains. This distortion creates a unique opportunity for magical spells and abilities to interact with and manipulate the creature's connection to its home plane.

Understanding the nature of reality wrinkles and the link they provide to the creature's home plane can be instrumental in developing strategies to confront and overcome the forces of evil that plague the Dread Domains.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

Well this goes against the very fabric of Ravenloft if this works like you described why is it then hard for anyone to reach the Prime Material Plane and leave Ravenloft?

[Mistmaster]

Well this goes against the very fabric of Ravenloft if this works like you described why is it then hard for anyone to reach the Prime Material Plane and leave Ravenloft?

Because you need to cast it the moment the Outsider enters in Ravenloft; not all thesummoners are so sctupolous. And some Outsider entered becaise casual rifts opening.

[tomokaicho]

Well this goes against the very fabric of Ravenloft if this works like you described why is it then hard for anyone to reach the Prime Material Plane and leave Ravenloft?

The outsiders are different. They are inherently linked to their home planes. Their flesh and spirit are one. The reality wrinkle (in this interpretation) is a manifestation of their home plane in the dread domains. And this reality wrinkle can be exploited by the planar anchoring spell to send these creatures back to the planes that they came from. Unless they have failed a powers check or performed a power ritual, that is - in that case the Dark Powers refuse to let them go. Like fish on a hook, they are henceforth caught.

In this lore, Dr Van Richten didn't know about this spell. In his Guide to Fiends, he speculated about the recklessness of summoning these fiends and how they might eventually fill up the world. In fact, most conjurors native to the dread domains are not so reckless, and know the planar anchoring spell.

[tomokaicho]

Because you need to cast it the moment the Outsider enters in Ravenloft; not all thesummoners are so sctupolous. And some Outsider entered becaise casual rifts opening.

You could cast it at a fiend that you come across while demon hunting, but it gets a saving throw. And to send it back, you still have to destroy it or banish it (via a spell). Not easy at all.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

Then why don't some famous Ravenloft fiends who have resisted the temptation of performing a power ritual don't find a conjurer to send them back?

[tomokaicho]

Then why don't some famous Ravenloft fiends who have resisted the temptation of performing a power ritual don't find a conjurer to send them back?

Under the official rules a fiend cannot make or fail a powers check until it has no reality wrinkle left. Under my minor revision, the fiends can indeed make and fail powers checks.

Presumably (in this scenario), the fiends that resisted power rituals and have been in Ravenloft for some time have failed a powers check. And since they are quite actively evil, it's very important to make sure fiends are detected and banished at the earliest opportunity, before they are forced to remain.

Another possibility is that fiends that have both not failed a powers check nor conducted a power ritual simply do not know about the planar anchoring spell, which is unique to Ravenloft and doesn't work anywhere else.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

I was talking about this...

Unless they have failed a powers check or performed a power ritual, that is - in that case the Dark Powers refuse to let them go. Like fish on a hook, they are henceforth caught...

Under the official rules a fiend cannot make or fail a powers check until it has no reality wrinkle left. Under my minor revision, the fiends can indeed make and fail powers checks.

Why bypassing the reality wrinkle resistance to powers checks? I believe that this is juxtaposed to what you want to do. You want fiends to be protected from being imprisoned in Ravenloft based on their reality wrinkles and at the same time you cancel them by applying Powers Checks to them.

Presumably (in this scenario), the fiends that resisted power rituals and have been in Ravenloft for some time have failed a powers check. And since they are quite actively evil, it's very important to make sure fiends are detected and banished at the earliest opportunity, before they are forced to remain.

Well since their very being is evil why aren't all fiends trapped in Ravenloft darklords? Because with what you wrote there is no chance they wouldn't be after a few years in Ravenloft. It is their reality wrinkles that protect them.

Another possibility is that fiends that have both not failed a powers check nor conducted a power ritual simply do not know about the planar anchoring spell, which is unique to Ravenloft and doesn't work anywhere else.

When I started this debate I had Inajira in my mind. Someone could say that he stays in Ravenloft because he wants to avenge Strahd for destroying his Book of Keeping but his line in Roots of Evil when this happens is
"If I can't go home no one will!". Well this could be a reaction to having his precious artifact/status destroyed but then again the Prime Material Plane has much more people to seduce and trap with his contracts without being cautious not to get trapped in a Demiplane by overstepping his foot or making a Power Ritual. And really don't you think an arcanaloth like him would have developed a spell as the one you suggest? We are talking about inhuman geniuses here, how come a mortal could develop a spell like that but a fiend like Inajira couln't/wouldn't/shouldn't?

[tomokaicho]

Why bypassing the reality wrinkle resistance to powers checks? I believe that this is juxtaposed to what you want to do. You want fiends to be protected from being imprisoned in Ravenloft based on their reality wrinkles and at the same time you cancel them by applying Powers Checks to them.

You are mixing the different problems of conjuration/called fiends to Ravenloft, which is a problem affecting the official lore, not my attempt to fix it. Yes - when a fiend loses their reality wrinkle under official lore, they can then be subject to powers checks, nor can they leave Ravenloft. This is totally redundant. They can't leave anyway, reality wrinkle or not. Effectively "the fiends can't leave Ravenloft, and if they lose their reality wrinkle, they can't leave Ravenloft". This makes no sense.

Well since their very being is evil why aren't all fiends trapped in Ravenloft darklords? Because with what you wrote there is no chance they wouldn't be after a few years in Ravenloft. It is their reality wrinkles that protect them.

The minor change is essential for making conjuration work. There are basically no conjurors in the Ravenloft setting, since the conjuration school of magic in the Ravenloft setting is broken. I'm trying bandaid concepts that were flawed from the start. It requires a slight alteration of the lore.

When I started this debate I had Inajira in my mind. Someone could say that he stays in Ravenloft because he wants to avenge Strahd for destroying his Book of Keeping but his line in Roots of Evil when this happens is
"If I can't go home no one will!". Well this could be a reaction to having his precious artifact/status destroyed but then again the Prime Material Plane has much more people to seduce and trap with his contracts without being cautious not to get trapped in a Demiplane by overstepping his foot or making a Power Ritual. And really don't you think an arcanaloth like him would have developed a spell as the one you suggest? We are talking about inhuman geniuses here, how come a mortal could develop a spell like that but a fiend like Inajira couln't/wouldn't/shouldn't?

Perhaps he could. And apparently Inajira wants to leave. If you simply take my spell without adjusting the lore as well, it makes no sense whatsoever. Sure, Inajira could easily find a native conjuror do send him back. Instead of taking that tact, use all of the lore I have presented. Inajira arrives in the dread domains, he's been a naughty boy and failed a powers check, and now he can't be banished back to his home plane.

It's quite likely that initially these fiends do not realise their predicament. They've got a nifty phylactery, which means that they can't be easily killed. They are probably very satisfied with that. There is a darkness in the land itself that is like sweet nectar. And the locals are like lambs to the slaughter. So the fiends could be around long enough to get stuck if they are not banished back home quickly enough.

Remember the point of this thread is to make conjuration as a school of magic and it's tropes viable in the Ravenloft setting. You can dispute my attempt at a solution but you can't dispute that the problem exists.