Energy Drain or Spirit Points that is the question?

[Mephisto of the FoS]

In Kargatane's Book of Sorrows Luis Fernando De Pippo had created an alternative to level draining called Spirit Points. I know form experience especially since I' ve only had one player character who managed to reach 10th level (in 2nd edition) that in some campaigns level advancement is really hard and time consuming. I would be really disappointed as a player if for instance an undead creature or necromancer drained even one level from my PC. I know that this is what makes some creatures like a vampire be dreaded by adventurer's even more than the killing of innocents, but I believe it is too much of a punishment for PC's even more than having a PC die, at leasts that can happen in funny or creative ways that the players will talk about for years to come, but energy drain I believe brings only disappointment and frustration.

So my question is has anyone tried the spirit point rules described in BoSor or maybe any other rule?

And what if levels drained by an undead creature or magic user return in a very slow rate, like one every month, or maybe a save to recover every week?

This still makes the energy attack bothersome,hell it can still incapacitate a PC but it can even be roleplayed as the PC being scarred and recovering slowly by the attack. As for spirit points I haven't decided if I like that rule, for sure I believe that the using spirit points rules give more power to PC's especially in small campaigns or one-off adventures were players may overuse this rule.

Maybe a combination of spirit rules for how many draining attacks a character can take, so that energy drain attacks can still be lethal if someone has been a target of such an attack and a slow level recovery is what I will probably use.

Maybe if a character loses all of his or her spirit points, then the loss of a level lost in the final energy attack could be permanent. Then after that loss the spirit points are renewed until the PC is again targeted by an energy attack, when these are finished the character loses another level. Maybe this way the energylevel attack is still feared cause the characters will always fear of losing too many spirit points, also Gondegals loss of 20 levels from the three vampires that attacked him before being saved by Helna Vladinova.

What are your comments/suggestions in these?

[Resonant Curse]

In third edition level draining could either be permanent or allowed a saving throw the next day to try and remove it depending on what the duration of the spell/effect was. I'd have to hunt down the rules on it again.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

In third edition level draining could either be permanent or allowed a saving throw the next day to try and remove it depending on what the duration of the spell/effect was. I'd have to hunt down the rules on it again.

This rule is one of the 3e rules, I never hαd checked it before since I thought it was the same as older editions, thanks for the insight.

Negative levels remain until 24 hours have passed or until they are removed with a spell, such as restoration. If a negative level is not removed before 24 hours have passed, the affected creature must attempt a Fortitude save (DC 10 + ½ draining creature’s racial HD + draining creature’s Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). On a success, the negative level goes away with no harm to the creature. On a failure, the negative level goes away, but the creature’s level is also reduced by one. A separate saving throw is required for each negative level.

The spell
There is no saving throw to avoid gaining the negative levels, but 24 hours after gaining them, the subject must make a Fortitude saving throw (DC = energy drain spell’s save DC) for each negative level. If the save succeeds, that negative level is removed. If it fails, the negative level also goes away, but one of the subject’s character levels is permanently drained.

But still there is a large percentage chance for permanent level loss. What if that level loss came back but much slower...

But maybe for the spell I would keep the rules as they are, it makes sense for a 9th level spell to be so strong but for monsters who not only can attack you with that power each round draining levels ithout a save and maybe use it to also sustain themselves it could be the milder version.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

Also I found this from here (page p. X27 of the 1981 Expert booklet) it explains why energy drain is important.

The important thing about energy drain is that it is a metagame effect. It simulates the supernatual fear certain undead create within the character with an effect the player fears.

That is, the purpose of energy drain is to get the player to avoid their character getting drained at all costs. An energy draining monster is not to be fought in a stand-up fight. It asks this question of the players: How do the characters defeat or avoid the monster without ever giving it a chance to use its energy drain?

Trying to find better rule for energy drain I checked 4th and 5th editions. I will say in advance that I don't compare which system is better, I am just trying to figure out how to make my game rules both more effective towards Player psychology, "realistic" and fun to play for PC's.

In 4th edition
I couldn't find rules for energy drain, as far as I know they don't officially exist... right?

In 5th edition
The target must succeed on a DC 10 Constitution saving throw or its hit point maximum is reduced by an amount equal to the damage taken. This reduction lasts until the creature finishes a long rest. The target dies if this effect reduces its hit point maximum to 0.

When I read this at first I liked it cause it is both dangerous as it can be lethal and not permanent, but it bases everything in HP which is something I always avoid to do and I kind of like the mechanics of a life draining attack making a PC weaker both physically (HP) and in skills/powers. I believe it makes them more afraid of energy attacks (undead) and incapacitates them. But both the saving throw and the natural recovery are good elements.

I found two alternative rules for 5e here (https://nerdwerds.blogspot.com/2015/07/ ... tupid.html)

1) use LotFP's alternative system for Con draining. This still gives most characters a lot of breathing room since it only drains 2 Constitution at a time, but give the Vampire double the effectiveness and you've restored a monster to a semblance of brutality that modern players will gasp at. The 4th-level spell Greater Restoration is required to recover this lost Constitution, a Long Rest simply won't cover it.

2) modify the monster entries in the 5th edition Monster Manual so that instead of permanently draining hit points or ability scores convert the damage dice to an XP loss multiplier. 1d4 Strength damage? No, 1d4 x 100 experience points. 4d8 hit points? No, 4d8 x 100 experience points. These effects all have saving throws built in so if you fail the save then the experience points are lost permanently, just like in DCC. This way spells don't need to be modified to accommodate the new rule and a Long Rest still just won't cut it!

This XP based drain is problematic to me as the drain is a life force drain not a memory etc. one. For the Con drain there are already monster's who do that.

For me since Ravenloft is a low-magic demiplane finding someone to cast restoration (or multiple restoration's) would be a campaign on it's own. So I am inclined towards the temporary level loss, but then what should be the time that characters need to rest until they regain lost levels? I've found this comment on the 5th edition he rule from 5th edition.

"Having the effect disappear by simply taking a long rest, to me, negates any fear factor the ability is intended to case. By having to deal with the effects even after a long rest makes it significantly more meaningful."

Well for me that would mean that for characters to recover they would need one full day of rest/level drained. Full day of rest means not sleeping in a damp dungeon but probably tucked nicely in bed holding a teddy bear. So characters can't recover while adventuring, making level drain really dangerous as before but also not creating disappointment and frustration to Players as lost levels can be recovered without the use of magic.

Do character's who don't manage to "sleep it off" for the total days needed get any levels back?
in my view of this rule, the character has to fully recover to gain the effect of restoring lost levels by resting. This is probably better than the monthly recovery I had suggested earlier and it makes sense in roleplaying too, as the character suffering from level drain can't feel strong enough until the total recovery of lost levels. But then again why those who feel weakened from level loss but were still able to fight their way through a dungeon, would not be able to recover some of their strength while resting properly in bed before going out again to fight when wolves attack the village? Is level similar to a flu? or is it more like a recovery from blood loss?

The problem I have with this is more on the nature of how easy does a weakened character has a will to get out of bed and continue. Maybe applying a slightly altered rule of the 3e rule for recovering could be applied also to"permanent" level loss.

After 24 hours of rest, the subject must make a Fortitude saving throw (DC = energy drain spell’s save DC) for one negative level to be removed. Maybe if a character has to get out of bed earlier a Wisdom check should also apply.

Think of the exhausted knight who although still feels week manages to get out of bed, to save the village from the wolves, only to realise in horror that the wolves are bait the vampire who drained him used, to get the knight out of the house.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

The Gondegal dilemma
So if the fore mentioned rules apply how was Gondegal reduced from a 20th level Fighter to a 10th level Fighter before advancing as a Knight of the Shadows?

Since the Grim Harvest began in 749BC concluding with the Requiem in 751BC and Gondegal becoming leader of the Circle in 751BC reappearing in the post-Requiem Champions of the Mists, it could be that the vampires that attacked him in Darkon were Kargat vampires who used death shard daggers against him. Since Death Shards are created with the use of the energy drain spell the level drain is permanent (which is what makes energy drain such a strong necromantic spell).

Comparing now a powerful fighter like Gondegal with a 5th level fighter the energy drain of 4 levels to a 5th level fighter is more lethal than a 20th level and although the recovery time is the same it is more debilitating to a lower level fighter than that of a higher level. But if for instance the 5th level fighter is reduced by 4 levels and a 20th level fighter by 10, does it takes longer for a higher level fighter to recover? What happens when for instance both the 5th and 20th level characters are reduced to 1st level? The temporary ex-20th character has 19 negative levels to recover while the 5th level only 4 and they have the same Saving Throws...

[alhoon]

I was always against permanent level loss. The purpose of the game is to be fun, not frustrating.

That said, in 5e I used some permanent hp loss when I played Grim Harvest. Out of 2d6 hp drain, 2 hp were permanent - until the PCs destroyed the skull in a proper way. Then, those hp would slowly return.
Nowdays, for draining attacks in D&D next (life drain, energy drain etc) I use a slower return rate unless restoration is used. I.e. the pcs get 1 hit dice back per long rest.
As an example, if a fighter loses 17 hp to a wight, then he would regain them at a rate of 1d10 per long rest.

As for your initial question, weakening the players instead of just taking away hp, I would simply give them a small penalty that goes away gradually, similar to exhaustion levels but milder.

Something like:
1: -2 (or -1d4 for those that prefer things like rolling for bless) to ability checks
2: -2 (or -1d4) to saving throws
3: -2 (or -1d4) to hit rolls
4: -2 (or -1d4) to strength, dexterity, charisma on top of the penalties
5: -2 (or -1d4) to con, wisdom, intelligence on top of the penalties
6: the penalties to ability checks increase to -3 (-1d6)
7: the penalties to saving throws increase to -3 (-1d6)
9: the penalties to hit rolls increase to -3 (-1d6)
10: the penalties to strength, dexterity, charisma increase to -3 (-1d6)
11: ...

Wights and lowly ghosts, spectres etc deal 1 step for each hit.
Serious spectres, wraiths, vampires etc deal 2 steps for each hit.
You reduce these penalties by 1 for each long rest. They all go away with a greater restoration spell or when you recover all your maximum hp.

In short, if it was 1 level energy drain in AD&D ~> 1 step. If it was 2 ~> 2 steps.

Beware that cascading penalties can lead to follow-up encounters becoming much more deadly!
Such things... break the balance. If your adventure is for 7th lvl characters and the fighter has a -2 to all rolls from 3 steps of energy drain and 25 hp less, then your fighter is 5th lvl and the party may hit a TPK.