[QTR21] Demise discussion

[Alastor]

I really liked the magical diseases, particularly the limited benefits, which could lure characters into contracting one on purpose (as Harkon Lukas claims to have done) and the Ravenloft worthy backstory.

It seemed a little strange at first that the petrification virus reached Demise, given that a barely inhabited island is an unlikely place for a disease outbreak, but perhaps a group of sufferers sought out the most isolated spot they could to avoid spreading the plague further.

Another question - why doesn't Althea try to find someone who can cast Stone to Flesh on her petrified children? There was an Dragon magazine article on a prison in the Eberron setting where people would voluntarily turn themselves to stone to be brought back hundreds of years later, so it seems as if petrified creatures can be revived after any amount of time. Althea could even have used her son's ability while he was in her hands, had she thought of it.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

I really liked the magical diseases, particularly the limited benefits, which could lure characters into contracting one on purpose (as Harkon Lukas claims to have done) and the Ravenloft worthy backstory.

I like them too, which is why I included them. To reiterate, the attribution that should have been in there was accidentally cut: The diseases are originally from RLMCIII and were updated to 3e by John Mangrum in a post on our forum. His updates are used with permission.

It seemed a little strange at first that the petrification virus reached Demise, given that a barely inhabited island is an unlikely place for a disease outbreak, but perhaps a group of sufferers sought out the most isolated spot they could to avoid spreading the plague further.

Perhaps... The idea to have the virus on Demise came from Mark Graydon's version of Demise in Alanik Ray's Library. He didn't explain how the virus got there, but I assumed that he used to explain Demise's lack of animal wildlife. The original 2e sources describe Demise as completely uninhabited by animals, although Althea is confined to the Labyrinth, so if she's supposed to be the reason, it makes no sense. In my version, I kept the virus from Mark's version, but also added Althea's ability to unknowingly lure creatures into the maze. Between those two dangers, I figured it was enough to explain the lack of animals (without resorting to Dark Powers' fiat.)

Another question - why doesn't Althea try to find someone who can cast Stone to Flesh on her petrified children? There was an Dragon magazine article on a prison in the Eberron setting where people would voluntarily turn themselves to stone to be brought back hundreds of years later, so it seems as if petrified creatures can be revived after any amount of time. Althea could even have used her son's ability while he was in her hands, had she thought of it.

I'm sure she would love to find someone who can cast the spell for her, but remember, she's trapped in a Labyrinth on a remote and untraveled island. There's not much opportunity for her to find someone who can do it, if she even knows it's possible for anyone other than Maedars. (It's unclear how magic-heavy her homeworld is, and how much contact she'd have with magic-users other than Stelios.) As for using her son, that would be an excellent, rational idea. But she wasn't thinking rationally when she attempted to kill him. She was an emotional wreck. And he was only an infant; it would be years before she could communicate with him and tell him what she needed him to do. Years that she'd have to raise a child she couldn't love, who reminded her of his father, whom she hated, every time she looked at him. Even if she were able to think that plan through, she'd never be able to go through with it for so long. And since Stelios swept the baby away from her attempt to kill him, she hasn't seen him again. So the opportunity was never there.

[alhoon]

I believe the Dark Powers would probably lead someone who could do Stone to Flesh there... only for her to lose her children again as they become re-petrified from the disease.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

I believe the Dark Powers would probably lead someone who could do Stone to Flesh there... only for her to lose her children again as they become re-petrified from the disease.

Totally fits her curse. Especially if the wizard who helped her got the disease as well, and couldn't be used again.

[alhoon]

I believe the Dark Powers would probably lead someone who could do Stone to Flesh there... only for her to lose her children again as they become re-petrified from the disease.

Totally fits her curse. Especially if the wizard who helped her got the disease as well, and couldn't be used again.

Totally fits the DP also. The wizard? He could leave, taken by the mists or die by other stuff.

[Jeremy16]

Here's my review of the Demise article from QTR #21:

This is a very good in depth look at a domain that is lucky to get a one line mention in canon materials. There's not a lot to criticize, so I hope no one gets tired of all the praise I lavish herein.

Johann Wehner's Journal – I like using the journal from a shipwrecked captain as source material. His account reminds me of Odysseus and his encounter with the Sirens.

Geography – I love the description of the cliffs, the crater, and the jungle. The volcanic rock reminds me of the bone powder found in Keening; the geysers remind me of the hellspouts of Borca; and the scatterbrae reminds me of the “dead zones” of Darkon. Normally, I would advise against repeating the gimmicks from other domains because it makes them both less uniquie, but it's a volcanic caldera, what elese would you expect?

Stone's Icy Chill – These “cold spots” are creepy enough on their own, but even more unsettling when their origin is revealed. I like the idea of using “spirit stone” to trap ethereal beings but it needs another name because it is exactly the same as the Spirit Stone creatures that are described later on.

Flora – I like the native flora highlighted here. One parallels the volcanic nature of the island (Betholletia Seeds) and the other parrallels its supernatural hazards (Apetros Orchids). Both are excellent MacGuffins to get PCs to visit this domain.

People – I'm not a fan of fey straying too far from the Shadow Rift, but the inclusion of the Alven colony is harmless here. I love Captain Wehner's ghost.

The Statuary Gardens – This is an interesting explanation for why petrified objects are found outside the maze. I never noticed this discrepancy; I always thought Althea had the run of the island.

The Labyrinth – The description of this place, and the encounter with Althea, is very well done. It reminds me of the fabled Egyptian Labyrinth which was a large collection of upstairs and downstairs rooms with multiple pathways running thru it. I like the use of illusions to make it more difficult for PCs to navigate. More sample “rooms” would have been nice, tho', in order to provide encounters that could be dropped in anywhere.

The Sculptor's Secret – I love this dread possibility. It's a good way to connect Demise to the rest of the Core, which is much needed.

Phagian Viruses – These are neat as hell, but why here? Eh, why look a gift horse in the mouth? It's all very nasty stuff. Phobia seems out of place, though; perhaps a better virus type would attack its victim's blood with very messy Phase 3 results. It's interesting to note that the Petrification virus seems to be the only one that can be recovered from after the disease runs its course.

Althea's History – I love this Darklord's story; there's deep yearning, betrayal, and murder. Her Act of Ultimate Darkness seems slight, but sometimes one deeply personal murder trumps a massacre in pathos.

Althea's Curse – Not being able to have any children is really unique and her compulsion to find a mate leaves open the possibility of actually surviving an encounter with her.

Althea's Children – I like having two of her children survive to adulthood – covering both the best- and worst-case scenarios for each parent. Omega's story is a great hook to get adventurers to come to the island. It is ironic that Leftheris is the culmination of his sires' deepest desires but doesn't conform to either parent's wishes for him. He is a very compelling and useful NPC.

The Stone Sisters – I'd like to believe these have been placed in the maze just as much to torment Althea as it is to fake out visitors.

Stelios – I like that you kept him around even after his “death”. Having him be the animating spirit of the maze is an interesting twist I would have never thought of. I like that the maze is never really “finished”. It gives the complex more depth instead of just treating it as one long race against death.

[Jeremy16]

Additional Thoughts

I would have liked to tie-in some naturally occuring mirror to help adventurers survive an encounter with the Darklord. Maybe a mention of an eruption of lava that fused the sand into a reflective glass surface a long time ago? Shattered pieces could still be found scattered around the outskirts of the crater. And while we're on the subject, why not have this island be a noted source of obsidian, a rare component used to make magical weapons? That could be yet another hook to bring people to the island.

I like the mention of lava vents and the cave system underneath the surface, but wish more description of them would be given here.

A mistway that connects to Vechor is a no-brainer. It could be a situational one that only appears after a visitor to the maze succumbs to madness. A portal appears before them that allows them to escape the labyrinth only to be deposited in the ever shifting landscape of Vechor.

And while we're on the subject, why not locate a mistway somewhere in the jungle that links up to the Steaming Lands cluster? It could be situated near one of the statuary gardens, which could account for the clustering of petrification victims.

[alhoon]

I like the idea of the shattered mirror...

[Mistmaster]

Soon or later, the Powers willing it or not, Archibald Everlast (immune to petrification, as a Lich) will walk in the island and solve those problems.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

This is a very good in depth look at a domain that is lucky to get a one line mention in canon materials. There's not a lot to criticize, so I hope no one gets tired of all the praise I lavish herein.

Thank you kindly! I'm quite proud of Demise, and I'm glad to see it holds up.

Johann Wehner's Journal

This bit is straight from the official writeup of Althea in RLMCII.

The volcanic rock reminds me of the bone powder found in Keening; the geysers remind me of the hellspouts of Borca; and the scatterbrae reminds me of the “dead zones” of Darkon. Normally, I would advise against repeating the gimmicks from other domains because it makes them both less uniquie,

Indeed, the volcanic rock and geysers were part of the "wild, Lost World/Harryhausen adventure" motif. The dead zones in Darkon are scatabrae. The ones here are due to the spirit stone, and Viktor (the narrator) makes the connection to scatabrae as an attempt as world cohesion.

I like the idea of using “spirit stone” to trap ethereal beings but it needs another name because it is exactly the same as the Spirit Stone creatures that are described later on.

Au contraire! One is spirit stone and the other is stone spirit. Completely different! Comment noted, though the Stone Spirits as creatures were originally from Mark Graydon's version of Demise in Alanik Ray's Library, and I just kept their names as they were there in homage.

I'm not a fan of fey straying too far from the Shadow Rift, but the inclusion of the Alven colony is harmless here.

See, I'm quite the opposite. I like having them spreading the Rift's influence through the domains.

Phagian Viruses – These are neat as hell, but why here? Eh, why look a gift horse in the mouth?

As mentioned above, Mark Graydon's version of Demise had the petrification virus there to explain the lack of animals, so I included it as a nod to his work, even though I added Althea's siren song as my explanation instead. (Mark himself gets a shout-out as the Alven Gray Donald, whose version of Althea's story is a summary of his version) These viruses were originally from Ravenloft Monstrous Compendium III, and at the time had never been officially updated to 3e, but John Mangrum had shared his 3e version of all the viruses on our forum and gave us permission to use his stats in the Demise writeup. We could have just included the relevant one, but I figured why not have them all there for posterity.

Althea's History – I love this Darklord's story; there's deep yearning, betrayal, and murder. Her Act of Ultimate Darkness seems slight, but sometimes one deeply personal murder trumps a massacre in pathos.

Thank you again! Indeed, if I had to change anything nowadays, I'd probably try to make Althea's act of darkness a little more clearly evil, so it doesn't read quite so much as a victim rising up against her tormenter. I wanted her to be sympathetic, and I think I succeeded too much on that front. (Also, I've been told my google-Greek names could use some work. I have some suggestions from a native Greek speaker here on the boards that I might use instead.)

The Stone Sisters – I'd like to believe these have been placed in the maze just as much to torment Althea as it is to fake out visitors.

Indeed, another inclusion from the original source, with no explanation there either. Correction, I believe that idea was Rotipher's doing.

Stelios – I like that you kept him around even after his “death”. Having him be the animating spirit of the maze is an interesting twist I would have never thought of. I like that the maze is never really “finished”. It gives the complex more depth instead of just treating it as one long race against death.

Thanks! once I did a deep dive on the (2e) ecology of Medusae/Maedars and found the notion of a glyptar, it all came together.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

I would have liked to tie-in some naturally occuring mirror to help adventurers survive an encounter with the Darklord. Maybe a mention of an eruption of lava that fused the sand into a reflective glass surface a long time ago? Shattered pieces could still be found scattered around the outskirts of the crater. And while we're on the subject, why not have this island be a noted source of obsidian, a rare component used to make magical weapons? That could be yet another hook to bring people to the island.

Not a bad idea at all. I like it!

I like the mention of lava vents and the cave system underneath the surface, but wish more description of them would be given here.

It was already quite a long writeup of a canonically very tiny place. I could have gone deeper into things, but was trying to make sure it didn't outweigh other chapters of the Gaz about more meaty places.

Your mistway ideas are also good. I do always love anything that connects the domains into a larger world.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

(Also, I've been told my google-Greek names could use some work. I have some suggestions from a native Greek speaker here on the boards that I might use instead.)

Stelios
Sorry Ron but I ll say that again here, the name Stelios messes up the atmosphere of the whole article, Alhoon and SilentRave do you agree? ( I am asking them because they are Greek speakers in case I am the only one that I know of here who gets irritated by the name)...

I had sent a message with some suggestions but I can't find it in my private messages or e-mail.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

(Also, I've been told my google-Greek names could use some work. I have some suggestions from a native Greek speaker here on the boards that I might use instead.)

Stelios
Sorry Ron but I ll say that again here, the name Stelios messes up the atmosphere of the whole article, Alhoon and SilentRave do you agree? ( I am asking them because they are Greek speakers in case I am the only one that I know of here who gets irritated by the name)...

I had sent a message with some suggestions but I can't find it in my private messages or e-mail.

Yes, you were the Greek speaker I was referring to. I've still got the message:

Hi I thought of some names in Ancient Greek. I ll write also their etymology. I can try to make up some more, these are a few I thought of inspired by Altheas background. Also because I used the ancient Greek language to write them their meaning is not obvious for those who speak modern Greek because the language has changed a lot since then (more like a different language than a dialect) making also foreign to Greek speakers.

For Stelios

Ethimomedon (ΕΘΙΜΟΜΕΔΩΝ pronounced E-th-im-o-méd-on) = He who protects traditions (also the word ΜΕΔΩΝ is in the etymology of the word Medusa=She who protects because medusa talismans "protected" from the evil eye)

Timomedon (ΤΙΜΟΜΕΔΩΝ pronounced Tim-oméd-on) = He who protects honor

Valakros (ΒΑΛΑΚΡΟΣ pronounced Va'l-a-kros) = He who shines/ who is bald (because Maedars are bald... heh, the word bald in modern greek is ΦΑΛΑΚΡΟΣ=fa-la-krós, but Valakros sounds totally different and more menacing for a more fantasy name it could also be Valakron)

Phileteros (ΦΙΛΕΤΕΡΟΣ pronounced Phil-é-terr-os) = He who is devoted to his friends (compared to the other names it sounds more trustworthy)

Vion (ΒΙΩΝ pronounced -V- ón) = He who lives


For Lefteris I thought of names appropriate to his time of birth as probably his father named him.

Alexovelos (ΑΛΕΞΟΒΕΛΟΣ pronounced Ale-ksó-vel-os) = He who beats back/repels arrows

Echthromitor (ΕΧΘΡΟΜΗΤΩΡ pronounced E-ch-thr-o-me-tor) = He who is considered an enemy by his mother (I like the etymology but it sounds a bit weird too)

Oogenon (ΟΩΓΕΝΝΩΝ pronounced ōyyó-yen-nón) = He who is born from an egg

Of those options, I lean toward Ethimomedon and Alexovelos, though I'm tempted to shorten both of them, which would probably just ruin them again from your standpoint. (Ethmedon and Axelos?)

[Mephisto of the FoS]

Really good suggestions!

Ethmedon sounds nice but I can't find an etymology but this suggestion lead me to

Evmedon= Æv-mæ-don (ΕΥΜΕΔΩΝ= He who protects well)

For Axelos can't think of anything else except that the word Ax (=αξ) could be derived from the word ἄξω (= axe--o) which is future perfect of the word ἄγω (=ag-o the letter g is pronounced similar to yi as in it sounds in the word yield) this free etymology for Axelos (Άξελος+pronounced as either A'kselos or Aksæ-los) could mean

he who will lead/direct/guide
he who will advance/move forward
he who will abduct or capture
he who will hive off
he who will cause something
he who will nurture/foster
he who will hold on to

I personally vote for Axelos (ΑΞΕΛΟΣ=Aksæ-los) and Evmedon (ΕΥΜΕΔΩΝ) they go well with Altheas story. Evmedon protected Axelos and Axelos's name suggests that he is destined for something. Also Evmedon has in it the word medon=ΜΕΔΩΝ which comes from ΜΕΔΟΥΣΑ=Medusa)

Evmedon has also an interesting anagram Εvdemon=ΕΥΔΑΙΜΩΝ (pronounced Æv-the-mon) meaning very calm and blissful or he who is protected by demons (meaning spirits, dieties or fate)