Fiends/Outsiders and Dark Lords

[Drinnik Shoehorn]

I think the next question that should be asked is what powers does a dark lord lose when entering a reality wrinkle? Lets use Strahd for the example.

Strahd would loose the ability to close the gates on the Svalich Pass, control the doors and windows in Castle Ravenloft, loose control of his carriage and have to be invited into houses.

[Malus Black]

I think the next question that should be asked is what powers does a dark lord lose when entering a reality wrinkle? Lets use Strahd for the example.

Strahd would loose the ability to close the gates on the Svalich Pass, control the doors and windows in Castle Ravenloft, loose control of his carriage and have to be invited into houses.

Although I agree with the loss of the other abilities (as well as the ability to close the domain borders), I'd still let him enter houses uninvited. He is still the ruler of Barovia, after all, and technically owns all houses already. As for the original question, I'd suggest removing the powers not available to an ordinary NPC of the same race, level, etc. unless these powers are clearly defined as not being gifts from the Dark Powers.

[DeepShadow of FoS]

Hold it a moment, these wrinkles don't take away all the DP gifts, just DL powers. From the sound of this discussion, a character who has failed five powers checks would not lose any granted powers in a fiend's reality wrinkle, but after that sixth failed check he loses them all?!?!?

And what about Vlad Drakov's slowed aging, explicitly a gift from the DP's? What about Adam's and Mordenheim's regeneration? Would slaying either of them in a reality wrinkle destroy them forever?!

I don't think so....

If anyone knows a clearer rule, please correct me, but until I hear better, this is how I would rule it. A DL in a reality wrinkle is cut off from the land, and has all gifts from the DP's except those that are innately tied to being a DL: border closure, locating paladins, immunity to certain spells, etc.

[Malus Black]

Hold it a moment, these wrinkles don't take away all the DP gifts, just DL powers.

You're right, I should have been clearer. When I said "gifts from the Dark Powers" I should have added "granted by being a darklord" or "granted by their connection with the land."

What about Adam's and Mordenheim's regeneration? Would slaying either of them in a reality wrinkle destroy them forever?!

That's actually a possibility. The Undying Soul quality of lords like Lukas or Hazlik might very well be suppressed in reality wrinkles, making fiends or celestials the one thing such darklords would truly fear.

[Ryan Naylor]

What about Adam's and Mordenheim's regeneration?

Just to be really pedantic, Mordenheim isn't the darklord of Lamordia; Adam is. However, he does get his regeneration/immortality from his bond to Adam - he's basically Adam's curse. Adam gets his regeneration from being a golem.

Thus, Adam would be relatively unaffected by being in a reality wrinkle. And so would Modenheim.

I would be interested to see if Mordenheim loses is regeneration when Adam is in a reality wrinkle though.

And I agree with Malus Black - Hazlik probably would lose his undying soul ability. But Drakov wouldn't age to death in a second.

[DeepShadow of FoS]

Okay, but how do we know which powers they keep or lose? How do we know whether Godefroy's powerful cane is a DL gift or a result of a failed powers check from killing his family? Remember he became a DL long after that event, so he may already have had some abilities from failed checks.

How about Jackie? Her foul mist ability, her spider climb, knawing through anything--are these DL gifts or the results of failed checks? How about Harkon Lucas, or Gabby, or Alfred Timothy? There are many DL's I'd rather not split these hairs with. Since many DP checks result in an increase to a preexisting ability, perhaps Drakov's magic resistance increased by increments to where it is now. So would it drop 10% inthe reality wrinkle of a fiend? Doesn't make sense to me.

[Drinnik Shoehorn]

Okay, but how do we know which powers they keep or lose? How do we know whether Godefroy's powerful cane is a DL gift or a result of a failed powers check from killing his family? Remember he became a DL long after that event, so he may already have had some abilities from failed checks.

How about Jackie? Her foul mist ability, her spider climb, knawing through anything--are these DL gifts or the results of failed checks? How about Harkon Lucas, or Gabby, or Alfred Timothy? There are many DL's I'd rather not split these hairs with. Since many DP checks result in an increase to a preexisting ability, perhaps Drakov's magic resistance increased by increments to where it is now. So would it drop 10% inthe reality wrinkle of a fiend? Doesn't make sense to me.

In the end I think the answer falls in to the old board answer:

Dm's choice.

[JinnTolser]

In the end I think the answer falls in to the old board answer:

Dm's choice.

Yeah, pretty much. In general, I'd say border closings and any other abilities clearly tied to the land would be lost, but obviously you have to decide on a case by case basis.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

I believe more area of effect or controlling powers would not work, like darklord animal domination (not the vampires) and similar darklord powers. For instance Strahd could still control a handfull of wolves but not all the wolves inside the fiends reality wrinkle. Then if the gates of ravenloft are within the fiends reality wrinkle he would not be able to control them but if he was lets say next to a fiend but the gates were outside the fiends reality wrinkle he could still access them. Now the thing with Harkon and Hazlik is more complicated, I believe Hazlik would still have his soul inside his medalion but he could be forever trapped by the fiend. I believe Harkon would survive too as his spirit could travel to any wolf outside the fiends reality wrinkle. If a fiend entered the House of lament it could go about without any problem not being able to be affected by any of the houses powers. If a fiend entered Castle Tristenoira I guess the Castle would remain in the present time since I believe the time-phase of the Castle is created by the DP and not the darklord's curse.

My question about reality wrinkles is: Why Inajira decided to stay in Barovia and how come Strahd let's him stay there, being disguised as a librarian doesn't mean he doesn't still have a massive reality wrinkle. I belive Vlad Drakov doesn't feel almost anything and if he is in close proximity to a fiend he could feel something peculiar but would not be able to understand what it is, maybe he has an eye twitching or something or else he would know Vigo is not his (I am writting an article about that for Halloween). This is probably the reason why his domain is so much preferred by fiends, there are three fiends who have officialy stayed for prolongued periods of time in Falkovnia, the only exception to Drakov's rule is Isold who Drakov percieves as a force of good even more annoying than a paladin.

I just remember Andrez Weissritter the Von Zarovich paladin form Legacies of Blood, how did he even survive to leave Barovia? And Eia Pax from Heroes of Light... it is remarkable how she managed to be a native to the Demiplane and still reach to be 14th level Paladin.

I believe the majority of paladins should be outlanders, also to have this impact of losing connection with their diety or the detect evil effect cancelled which could be a big shock roleplaying-wise. If paladins are raised in Ravenloft then they actually don't know what they've missed, I believe the Knights of the Shadows were created exactly for that purpose by developers to kind of replace the outlandish do-gooders

[Rock of the Fraternity]

In the end it's DM's choice, but I'd say a fiend's reality wrinkle does not suppress the darklord's powers, and the darklord's powers do not suppress the fiend's reality wrinkle. They just don't interact; like oil and water, they naturally repel one another. Maybe that's why a reality wrinkle can pass through closed domain borders, and why its presence inside a domain is normally such an irritant to darklords: here is something which does not belong.

You could compare a fiend's presence in a domain to be like an errant piece of grit inside an oyster. It does not belong there, but the organism has no way to expel it, so it builds of layers of insulation: a pearl. Once encapsulated, the grit can no longer hurt the oyster, but likewise the oyster no longer touches the pearl.
A fiend's reality wrinkle, its portable domain, is the pearl that prevents its presence from being an even bigger bother to the lords and ladies of whatever realm they're moving through. It makes them immune to darklord powers, but not to any magic or weapons a darklord could wield besides those. Likewise, the fiend's land-based powers would not affect the darklord, but its own magic, spell-like abilities and natural weapons would work just fine.

[tomokaicho]

The fiends reality winkle gives way to the Dark Lord.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

From Van Richten's Guide to Fiends:

The land inside a fiend's reality wrinkle does not change with the fiends arrival. In the Demiplane Of Dread campaign, magical control over it merely passes from the domain lord to the fiend. This immediately alerts the domain lord to the presence of a powerful force in the local realm. A fiend cannot seal the borders of its own pocket domain. Anyone who wishes to enter a reality wrinkle and approach the fiend is free to do so.

A fiend is able to pass freely through magical borders and barriers in a RAVENLOFT setting, even those maintained by powerful magical beings. The borders of the fiend's pocket domain are continually open. When the open border of such a pocket domain meets the closed border of one of the normal domains, the power of the pocket domain supersedes the more diffuse power of this realm. Thus, no higher being can bar a fiend's passage through a "closed" domain.

Dr. Van Richten is partially correct in his observations. The reality wrinkle of the fiend does create an area that is impenetrable to the scrutiny of a domain lord. The evil of the fiend disrupts the connection between the domain lord and the domain, and it is this connection that grants the domain lord the ability to magically survey the domain.

From the 3rd Edition Campaign Setting:

As mentioned above, the reality wrinkle serves as a pocket domain, with the fiend itself as lord. Unlike a true darklord, however, the fiend is not cursed, and it is free to wander within Ravenloft as it wishes. The reality wrinkle moves with the fiend, and wherever the fiend travels it temporarily usurps control of the land around it. This means that the fiend cannot be hindered by the closed borders of a domain, for its reality wrinkle supersedes those borders. Nor can a darklord exert any of its granted powers within a fiend's reality wrinkle. Darklords are immediately aware of any fiends within their domain, as they can feel the sudden severance with a portion of their land.

I see the reality wrinkle working more like a drop of oil in water. But as I said before I believe a darklord can use his granted powers even if he inside a fiends reality wrinkle but these powers don't work within the reality wrinkle. So he can still affect other places of his domain but not the area of effect within a reality wrinkle.

Von Kharkov can still see trhough the feline eyes within his domain but if these cats are within the reality wrinkle he is unable to.

Adam has regeneration because it is his creature ability, Mordenheim, even if he is not exactly the darklord, has it too because regeneration is not an area effect magical ability granted to him but within him.

As I said before a darklords animal or weather control and border closure are impossible within a reality wrinkle, these powers work only if they are class or creature powers. A vampire darklord can still charm people within the reality wrinkle because it is a creature ability but probably d'Honaire can't use his powers within a reality wrinkle, unless if they these are considered class powers.

Ivana can still kill people with her poisonus touch cause it is her body that is poisonous, but Ivan probably can't make object's poisonous within a fiends reality wrinkle.

[brothersale]

I'd like to know what would happen if a Darklord came close to a fiend's reality wrinkle...

Technically, isn't a reality wrinkle like a pocket domain centred on the fiend? This is why they can cross borders?

Anyway, I want to know, can a Darklord enter a fiend's reality wrinkle? I want a particular fiend to have an encounter with a darklord...

What do you people think?

Personally i would look at in terms similar to a pool of water (the domain) but with drop of oil (the fiend's bubble). While the oil moves round the water they dont mix. to further analogy at one point in water and the oil is fixed after fashion (the darklord/the fiend) if one move towards the other, the oil flows away creating a "v" into the oil until the two fixed points meet.

Thus the two points meet but they also don't

[brilliantlight]

From what I remember of Azalin's Asking...
A darklord is fully capable of entering a fiend's reality wrinkle, otherwise, how would Inajira been able to confront Strahd?
However, the darklord can not leave his domain while inside of the fiend's wrinkle, that is, to escape on the fiend's coattails, as it were, unless the fiend somehow dissolved/destroyed the domain beforehand.

This is how I would do it. Darklords are perfectly able to enter it but if it leaves his domain he is still stuck in his own domain. In fact I would have any darklord powers that the darklord might have prevail whenever it conflicts with the fiends but only on the side the darklod is on. IOW, if the darklord comes from the north his rules prevail in the northward direction but not the south or east or west.

[brilliantlight]

Hi all,
This thread got me thinking, in my campaign the players will soon encounter a being that is more of an angel then a demon, but as I understand it, it would also alter the reality of the world around them. Do I remember this correctly?
Would a darklord be able to approach an angel? What is the angel becomes corrupted. Does is stop being an angel, do its powers fade?

It's a rather sad story really, an angel got summoned to Ravenloft, could not leave, got corrupted in time and now tries some pretty horrible things to get out. Of course my players get intimately involved.

Jennifer

In Carnival, there's a scene described where Hazlik cries like a baby infront of Isolde because he can't use his powers. I personally would rule that an Angel's reality wrinkle is more dangerous to a DL than a fiends because an Angel's is generated by goodness, rather than evil.

I strongly agree with this. I would make celestials powers override that of the darklord, in contrast to fiends. For this reason all but the most powerful of darklords will avoid Isolde like the plauge.