the Falkovnian slave trade

[brilliantlight]

If he's not a legitimate ruler, then the Core's apathy is going to make him one.

Well, first yes at some point it should be done so. The apathetic ones deserve to realize one day that Falkovnia is not "that place under an unwashed barbarian with delusions of grandeur, that sends us food and we hire killers from".
But... legitimacy is solely based on the perceived right to rule I think, not modernization and military might. The Mongols at one time held half of Eastern Europe and yet nobody (officially) considered them legitimate rules.

I have to say though, that what you said clicks well with Drakov's curse. Efforts of modernization, of turning Falkovnia (through tons of blood and decades of work) to a dystopic-but-actual country ... and continued to be snobbed as nothing but an imposter that doesn't belong in civilized company but should stay outside with the other guards.

He doesn't need spellcasters to be able to go toe-to-toe with a powerful spellcasting vampire/lich, assuming that information is available to the Ministry of Intelligence. He needs just enough magic to prevent the past from happening: fallen soldiers rising in death and joining the other side and demoralizing his troops, etc.

Well, on that (and military expansion)... there's no mortal magic that can overcome borders.

Unless the ministry of intelligence (That I doubt is as good as that in research, they probably spy on each other) figures that a captured fiend is the way to break through borders or a Baatezu drops by to help for some reason openly using its reality wrinkle, ANY invasion from Falkovnia can be dealt with a moment's notice from most of its neighbors.

And assume you are in the ministry of intelligence. Would you tell him that there's no way to pierce borders? That he will FOREVER fail to conquer even the opera-loving people of Dementlieu that have less soldiers than the smallest of his cities?
I know I wouldn't...

As for scientists and casters... I am a scientist and morals aside I wouldn't emigrate to such a place for work. Too much risk of becoming the dinner entertainment after a failed experiment.

Yeah, I see Drakov being about as respected as Benito Mussolini during WWII and for the same reason. For all his swagger of having a "mighty army" he regularly gets kicked around the block and so looks like a strutting buffoon.

I see the ministries much like you do. The natives are too illiterate to produce excellent mages or scientists and he has nothing to offer highly competent foreign spellcasters or scientists so he has to rely on second raters. He probably has some highly competent generals however.

[jamesfirecat]

I see the ministries much like you do. The natives are too illiterate to produce excellent mages or scientists and he has nothing to offer highly competent foreign spellcasters or scientists so he has to rely on second raters. He probably has some highly competent generals however.

The two main failure of the ministries is probably that they are wedded to Drakov's incorrect view of how to make war in a D&D setting, and the fact that Drakov is probably overly fond of the sort of project/invention looks good on paper, strokes your ego to see in person, and preforms horribly in the field.

To pick an idea at random one thing I can quite easily imagine the ministry of science creating imagine the following...

The Death Thresher, a gigantic clockwork (possibly also some "golem" style magic, maybe even wood burning also) combine harvester designed to help with the invasion of Darkon by dealing with the unending waves of zombies that only get stronger by throwing more soldiers at them, since those soldiers inevitably die and get turned into more zombies.

The Death Thresher however will be designed to simply roll right over/clear a path through a hoard of zombies/skeletons with no danger at all to the people driving it while transforming the undead into harmless blood splatters and bonechips.

Then less than a mile over the boarder it scoops up a rock in exactly the wrong way so that the rock gets stuck where it shouldn't and the entire thing falls apart or it otherwise suffers some sort of humiliating "minor" mechanical breakdown which brings the entire thing to a stop and inevitably dooms its crew since it is hard to make repairs while you're surrounded by a horde of zombies.

That saying about "beginners study tactics, experts study logistics" is (besides the entire magic thing) the other half of why Drakov fails at conquering anything. He used to be a leader of a smallish band of mercenaries and he still fights wars like he's the leader of a small band on a larger scale without realizing that somebody needs to attend to all the "unsexy" parts of warfare like making sure your troops have food, water, sanitation and boots that don't have holes in them.

The fact that his invasion of G'Henna was in a large part defeated because he seemed to expect his army to just be able to forage for supplies rather than knowing enough about the local terrain to make sure his soldiers brought plenty of extra supplies with them is the perfect example of this.

[Five]

Well, on that (and military expansion)... there's no mortal magic that can overcome borders.

Agreed. But does Drakov know that? His army, as far as I know, never encountered this phenomenon (Azalin closing his borders) before. If that is true, then it's an ace in Azalin's sleeve to be sure.

...Falkovnia can be dealt with a moment's notice from most of its neighbors.

If that were true, and if it were believed that Falkovnia could be dealt with in such a backhanded way, then the Treaty of the Four Towers wouldn't have come into existence. Obviously, four nations fear Falkovnia/Drakov enough to warrant a mutal defence agreement. I can't imagine (right now) there being any other purpose behind the treaty than for that. There is always a potential for intrigue given the nature of such things, so I wouldn't rule the thought out.

And assume you are in the ministry of intelligence. Would you tell him that there's no way to pierce borders? That he will FOREVER fail to conquer even the opera-loving people of Dementlieu that have less soldiers than the smallest of his cities?
I know I wouldn't...

No, I'd retreat to Mordent and start making fishing nets or some such thing. haha

As for scientists and casters... I am a scientist and morals aside I wouldn't emigrate to such a place for work. Too much risk of becoming the dinner entertainment after a failed experiment.

plus

The natives are too illiterate to produce excellent mages or scientists and he has nothing to offer highly competent foreign spellcasters or scientists so he has to rely on second raters. He probably has some highly competent generals however.

"Cutting edge science" wouldn't appeal to an unscrupulous Lamordian? Hubris, greed, ambition, pursuit of science for its own sake (neutrality)...all are other reasons for amoral scientists to join. They may not and don't have to agree with Drakov's barbaric sensibilities, but the chance to forward science, without being bogged-down by bothersome ideals such as morals, could be too great of a lure. Japan's Unit 731 and the scientists behind Nazi human experimentation are real life examples of people willing to do anything and face anything to excel at their "craft". I don't think it too far a stretch to apply that same drive to a fantasy horror setting that is, in part, modelled after such people and events.

Besides, Drakov and his cronies might be a little more lenient when it comes to scientific failures and general lack of progress. Even hick warmongers, if you still believe that of Falkovnians, can realize the difference between training soldiers (malleable minds) and utilizing gifted (hardwired) minds to further their war...it all depends on the seriousness of these Ministries I suppose.

Food for thought.

[Five]

To pick an idea at random one thing I can quite easily imagine the ministry of science creating imagine the following...

The Death Thresher, a gigantic clockwork (possibly also some "golem" style magic, maybe even wood burning also) combine harvester designed to help with the invasion of Darkon by dealing with the unending waves of zombies that only get stronger by throwing more soldiers at them, since those soldiers inevitably die and get turned into more zombies.

The Death Thresher however will be designed to simply roll right over/clear a path through a hoard of zombies/skeletons with no danger at all to the people driving it while transforming the undead into harmless blood splatters and bonechips.

Then less than a mile over the boarder it scoops up a rock in exactly the wrong way so that the rock gets stuck where it shouldn't and the entire thing falls apart or it otherwise suffers some sort of humiliating "minor" mechanical breakdown which brings the entire thing to a stop and inevitably dooms its crew since it is hard to make repairs while you're surrounded by a horde of zombies.

haha

Yeah, I can see that too. Then it's back to the drawing board again, just like the tank wars of both World Wars.

But eventually, the laughs will stop. Depending if you care enough or not...

[jamesfirecat]

haha

Yeah, I can see that too. Then it's back to the drawing board again, just like the tank wars of both World Wars.

But eventually, the laughs will stop. Depending if you care enough or not...

One day by sheer random chance Falkovnia will hit on a monsterous mechanical weapon that actually works.

In my campaign setting it's marked for about five years after a mildly incensed (I'm not MAD!) Lamordian invents the Minié Ball. He tried selling it in Falkovnia first of course (they have the biggest army and thus the widest market) and after being effectively thrown out on his ear by Drakov decided he'd just have to take it to the nations of the Four Towers instead.

Superiority

[brilliantlight]

I see the ministries much like you do. The natives are too illiterate to produce excellent mages or scientists and he has nothing to offer highly competent foreign spellcasters or scientists so he has to rely on second raters. He probably has some highly competent generals however.

The two main failure of the ministries is probably that they are wedded to Drakov's incorrect view of how to make war in a D&D setting, and the fact that Drakov is probably overly fond of the sort of project/invention looks good on paper, strokes your ego to see in person, and preforms horribly in the field.

To pick an idea at random one thing I can quite easily imagine the ministry of science creating imagine the following...

The Death Thresher, a gigantic clockwork (possibly also some "golem" style magic, maybe even wood burning also) combine harvester designed to help with the invasion of Darkon by dealing with the unending waves of zombies that only get stronger by throwing more soldiers at them, since those soldiers inevitably die and get turned into more zombies.

The Death Thresher however will be designed to simply roll right over/clear a path through a hoard of zombies/skeletons with no danger at all to the people driving it while transforming the undead into harmless blood splatters and bonechips.

Then less than a mile over the boarder it scoops up a rock in exactly the wrong way so that the rock gets stuck where it shouldn't and the entire thing falls apart or it otherwise suffers some sort of humiliating "minor" mechanical breakdown which brings the entire thing to a stop and inevitably dooms its crew since it is hard to make repairs while you're surrounded by a horde of zombies.

That saying about "beginners study tactics, experts study logistics" is (besides the entire magic thing) the other half of why Drakov fails at conquering anything. He used to be a leader of a smallish band of mercenaries and he still fights wars like he's the leader of a small band on a larger scale without realizing that somebody needs to attend to all the "unsexy" parts of warfare like making sure your troops have food, water, sanitation and boots that don't have holes in them.

The fact that his invasion of G'Henna was in a large part defeated because he seemed to expect his army to just be able to forage for supplies rather than knowing enough about the local terrain to make sure his soldiers brought plenty of extra supplies with them is the perfect example of this.

Agreed, I see him similar to an inept 3rd World military dictator who knows he needs tanks and planes and other modern weapons but does not really know how to go about it. He buys hoards of obsolete weapons that he has difficulty supplying and maintaining and can get kicked around the block by smaller armies with more modern weapons, better training and logistics.

[brilliantlight]

...Falkovnia can be dealt with a moment's notice from most of its neighbors.

If that were true, and if it were believed that Falkovnia could be dealt with in such a backhanded way, then the Treaty of the Four Towers wouldn't have come into existence. Obviously, four nations fear Falkovnia/Drakov enough to warrant a mutal defence agreement. I can't imagine (right now) there being any other purpose behind the treaty than for that. There is always a potential for intrigue given the nature of such things, so I wouldn't rule the thought out.

I agree with you here. Although he can't conquer he can do damage to the nations he invades and they can't conquer him either. He has a large first rate army and the dark lord powers that defeat him abroad don't apply in Falkovian borders.

As for scientists and casters... I am a scientist and morals aside I wouldn't emigrate to such a place for work. Too much risk of becoming the dinner entertainment after a failed experiment.

plus

The natives are too illiterate to produce excellent mages or scientists and he has nothing to offer highly competent foreign spellcasters or scientists so he has to rely on second raters. He probably has some highly competent generals however.

"Cutting edge science" wouldn't appeal to an unscrupulous Lamordian? Hubris, greed, ambition, pursuit of science for its own sake (neutrality)...all are other reasons for amoral scientists to join. They may not and don't have to agree with Drakov's barbaric sensibilities, but the chance to forward science, without being bogged-down by bothersome ideals such as morals, could be too great of a lure. Japan's Unit 731 and the scientists behind Nazi human experimentation are real life examples of people willing to do anything and face anything to excel at their "craft". I don't think it too far a stretch to apply that same drive to a fantasy horror setting that is, in part, modelled after such people and events.

Nazi and Japanese militarist scientists conducted sick human experiments more out of perverted nationalism and sadism than to "advance science". Many of them weren't very good in any case.

Besides, Drakov and his cronies might be a little more lenient when it comes to scientific failures and general lack of progress. Even hick warmongers, if you still believe that of Falkovnians, can realize the difference between training soldiers (malleable minds) and utilizing gifted (hardwired) minds to further their war...it all depends on the seriousness of these Ministries I suppose.

Food for thought.

Possibly, depending on how insane you see Drakov. He could well have it enough together to distinguish the two.

[Five]

Nazi and Japanese militarist scientists conducted sick human experiments more out of perverted nationalism and sadism than to "advance science". Many of them weren't very good in any case.

Well, it is said that some of that research was of such interest at the time as to grant those scientists immunity from prosecution. Any advancements made from that research is beyond my personal knowledge. Too much mud in those waters for me to see the truth...

But bringing things back to RL, perverted nationalism and sadism is right up Falkovnia's alley. Either way, science could be advanced through either. I like to think anyway. Even if it is, as jamesfirecat points out, "accidental".

[Five]

In my campaign setting it's marked for about five years after a mildly incensed (I'm not MAD!) Lamordian invents the Minié Ball. He tried selling it in Falkovnia first of course (they have the biggest army and thus the widest market) and after being effectively thrown out on his ear by Drakov decided he'd just have to take it to the nations of the Four Towers instead.

Fitting. The world goes rail gun and Vlad decides that there might be something to these..."fire works".

haha

[jamesfirecat]

Agreed, I see him similar to an inept 3rd World military dictator who knows he needs tanks and planes and other modern weapons but does not really know how to go about it. He buys hoards of obsolete weapons that he has difficulty supplying and maintaining and can get kicked around the block by smaller armies with more modern weapons, better training and logistics.

Honestly you are giving him too much credit, a third world military dictator in your analogy knows what he needs, he just can't possibly afford it/get his hands on it.

Vlad is more like a General during WW1 complaining about how yes you can make a tank bullet proof and all that, but it just doesn't have the romanticisimof an actual horse charge with sabers held aloft, that's the way to really put fear into the heart of the foe!

Vlad desperately clings to all the things that make combat "glorious" because he needs combat to be glorious, since combat is all that he's ever been good at.

The problem is that the "glories of war" are being inevitably killed off b the exact same forces that did away with them in real life, firearms. Firearms made it so that some random farmer could pretty easily kill of a mercenary who had spent their entire life training for combat. That is exactly why Vlad hates them after all (at least in my understanding of his character).

The other reason "glories of war" are dying off/is magic. High powered magic is let us roughly assume to be the equivalent of the sort of massed heavy artillery fire that first really saw use in World War 1, the kind that turns ordinary flat level ground into a pot marked moonscape and slaughters everyone who gets caught up in it. Except that it isn't the work of several powerful machines, it's the work of one man, one god of battle who crushes ordinary soldiers beneath their mystical boots like bugs.

But Vlad doesn't have that kind of power, he's stuck just swinging a sword around, and he can't admit that swinging a sword around just ins't how you fight wars in a high level D&D environment. When you get to high level, Caramon retires and opens an inn, Raistlin gets to challenge the gods themselves and fail for reasons that have nothing to do with a lack of raw power (this analogy especially apt since Drakov came from Krynn).

Vlad hates the fact that wizards are always going to win in higher level/larger scale engagements so he refuses to let his side use them. He hates the fact that firearms are making the day of the career soldier being invincible against the "rabble" come to an end so he refuses to use them.

Vlad wants to cling to the glories of war, wants to believe that by covering himself in those glories he can make people respect him in Ravenloft in a way that they never did back in Krynn. But he's never going to win because the fantasticism with which he seeks those ends is ultimately self defeating.

No matter how hard Drakov tries, he'll always be the Cyote and....


Meep Meep Mother[REDACTED]

[alhoon]

If that were true, and if it were believed that Falkovnia could be dealt with in such a backhanded way, then the Treaty of the Four Towers wouldn't have come into existence. Obviously, four nations fear Falkovnia/Drakov enough to warrant a mutal defence agreement. I can't imagine (right now) there being any other purpose behind the treaty than for that. There is always a potential for intrigue given the nature of such things, so I wouldn't rule the thought out.

There comes the slave raiding parties (if you go for them, I don't) and a few other things:
- The treaty came into effect IIRC after Drakov allied with Maloccio that rules much of Invidia politically.
- The treaty involves domains that 1. love intrigue or 2. have political leaders that aren't darklords (Mordent, Dementlieu).

I doubt Jaqueline is afraid of Talons at all. She can close the borders to stop an invading force much like Azalin did 5 times in a row and she doesn't strike me as someone that would care that much (prestige aside) for 6 talons skewering 15 peasants outside of her cities.
However, the opportunities presented by "the big bad bully" next door, are many. At times political entities even create phantom enemies to promote their agenda.

Dominic is IMO even more ruthless than this. Perhaps he sees the brooding class war in Dementlieu and thinks "Hmm... perhaps a force of Talons staking people would buy me some time. Let's provoke a war with Falkovnia." actually setting the ground for hundreds of people to die.

As of brilliant science\magic: Well, truth be told, despite everything I said and how I think world would work... I have the DP deliver insane sadistic and competent wizards and scientists to Falkovnia often. It's a game. I want them to have this stuff. I want a part of sewers being flooded with broken ones from failed man-animal chimera experiments.

[brilliantlight]

Agreed, I see him similar to an inept 3rd World military dictator who knows he needs tanks and planes and other modern weapons but does not really know how to go about it. He buys hoards of obsolete weapons that he has difficulty supplying and maintaining and can get kicked around the block by smaller armies with more modern weapons, better training and logistics.

Honestly you are giving him too much credit, a third world military dictator in your analogy knows what he needs, he just can't possibly afford it/get his hands on it.

Vlad is more like a General during WW1 complaining about how yes you can make a tank bullet proof and all that, but it just doesn't have the romanticisimof an actual horse charge with sabers held aloft, that's the way to really put fear into the heart of the foe!

Vlad desperately clings to all the things that make combat "glorious" because he needs combat to be glorious, since combat is all that he's ever been good at.

The problem is that the "glories of war" are being inevitably killed off b the exact same forces that did away with them in real life, firearms. Firearms made it so that some random farmer could pretty easily kill of a mercenary who had spent their entire life training for combat. That is exactly why Vlad hates them after all (at least in my understanding of his character).

The other reason "glories of war" are dying off/is magic. High powered magic is let us roughly assume to be the equivalent of the sort of massed heavy artillery fire that first really saw use in World War 1, the kind that turns ordinary flat level ground into a pot marked moonscape and slaughters everyone who gets caught up in it. Except that it isn't the work of several powerful machines, it's the work of one man, one god of battle who crushes ordinary soldiers beneath their mystical boots like bugs.

But Vlad doesn't have that kind of power, he's stuck just swinging a sword around, and he can't admit that swinging a sword around just ins't how you fight wars in a high level D&D environment. When you get to high level, Caramon retires and opens an inn, Raistlin gets to challenge the gods themselves and fail for reasons that have nothing to do with a lack of raw power (this analogy especially apt since Drakov came from Krynn).

Vlad hates the fact that wizards are always going to win in higher level/larger scale engagements so he refuses to let his side use them. He hates the fact that firearms are making the day of the career soldier being invincible against the "rabble" come to an end so he refuses to use them.

Vlad wants to cling to the glories of war, wants to believe that by covering himself in those glories he can make people respect him in Ravenloft in a way that they never did back in Krynn. But he's never going to win because the fantasticism with which he seeks those ends is ultimately self defeating.

No matter how hard Drakov tries, he'll always be the Cyote and....


Meep Meep Mother[REDACTED]

True, when Drakov sees war he doesn't see it so much as wanton destruction but a glorious endeavor. What muskets did is less get rid of the need for training but changed what kind of training was needed and sped up the training process. If all you do is hand some poor schlep a musket what you get is a poor schlep with a musket not a soldier. What it doesn't take is a lifetime of practice but a few weeks to be reasonably good.

[Five]

Agreed. But does Drakov know that? His army, as far as I know, never encountered this phenomenon (Azalin closing his borders) before. If that is true, then it's an ace in Azalin's sleeve to be sure.

For some reason I thought Azalin called up a wall of skulls to close his borders. Huh. I'm wrong.

Somebody does that though, don't they?

[Five]

Agreed. But does Drakov know that? His army, as far as I know, never encountered this phenomenon (Azalin closing his borders) before. If that is true, then it's an ace in Azalin's sleeve to be sure.

For some reason I thought Azalin called up a wall of skulls to close his borders. Huh. I'm wrong.

Somebody does that though, don't they?

G'Henna. Nevermind.

Now that I think of it, I'll confess: as a DM (currently on "sabbatical") I've never actually closed a border on my PCs. Never felt the need to, given the nature of the Mists. Hell, even then I've only ever used them to bring my PCs back in one time, as far as I can recall.

But that's neither here nor there so...don't mind me.

[Five]

There comes the slave raiding parties (if you go for them, I don't) and a few other things:
- The treaty came into effect IIRC after Drakov allied with Maloccio that rules much of Invidia politically.
- The treaty involves domains that 1. love intrigue or 2. have political leaders that aren't darklords (Mordent, Dementlieu).

I doubt Jaqueline is afraid of Talons at all. She can close the borders to stop an invading force much like Azalin did 5 times in a row and she doesn't strike me as someone that would care that much (prestige aside) for 6 talons skewering 15 peasants outside of her cities.
However, the opportunities presented by "the big bad bully" next door, are many. At times political entities even create phantom enemies to promote their agenda.

Dominic is IMO even more ruthless than this. Perhaps he sees the brooding class war in Dementlieu and thinks "Hmm... perhaps a force of Talons staking people would buy me some time. Let's provoke a war with Falkovnia." actually setting the ground for hundreds of people to die.

Cool alternative starts. I figured I'd be sidetracked with them as soon as you inadvertently triggered my earlier post. I feel a little bit guilty taking things this far away from the origins of this thread (slaves in Falkovnia) so I'm a little hesitant in getting into it more here and now.